Parent & Child -v- Disabled Parking Bays?

[Lambstails]

Hello,

Firstly, I feel the need to apologise for posting on here, but I'm genuinely interested in the view of any parents or other guardians of children who use dedicated parent and child spaces. The reason for my apology being that I am not, and have never unfortunately been a parent myself - this was not a lifestyle choice.

I am however, registered disabled and in receipt of the higher mobility rate of PIP which automatically entitles me to use a blue badge. The nature of my condition means that some (very few) days I am quite capable of parking in a 'normal' bay if there is one available relatively close to where I need to be, but most days I HAVE to use a wider bay to get myself in and out of my car, together with my wheeled walker. On days where I can cope ok with just a walking stick, and where there's a regular space available close enough, I steer clear of the blue badge bays, preferring to leave them for people who have no option but to use them. I also would like to add (as it's relevant further down) that my 85 year old Mother is also registered disabled (we have the same congenital spinal condition). My Mum is also sadly now in palliative care for terminal cancer and she cannot walk more than about 10 metres, so is a wheelchair user. She is rarely well enough to leave the house, but on hers and mine 'better' days, I do try and get her out for an hour or so.

A month or so ago, I was able to take Mum out and parked at a local retail park where the ratio of blue badge spaces to parent and child spaces is about 8/15 in the P&C space's favour (I find this bewildering, to be honest). There were no BB spaces free, but plenty of P&C bays were unused. I therefore parked in one and ensured my blue badge was displayed. Fast forward to when we returned to my car, having pushed Mum around the shop for 5 minutes or so, got her out of her wheelchair, into the car and the wheelchair in the boot, I was about on my knees myself. I cannot describe how difficult this is sometimes, for both of us. Anyway, before I could get myself in the car, a furious woman came over to me and lambasted me for parking in a P&C space. She was also parked in one next to me (with her suspiciously tall teenage children in the back). I tried to explain that there were no blue badge spaces free at the time we parked but she called me all sorts of unrepeatable names and "a lazy b*tch" to boot. I pointed out that she and her 'children' looked quite capable of walking, she didn't have a pushchair or pram and that my Mum cannot walk, which she clearly could see with the difficulty getting her into the car, but she was having none of it. I decided to then ignore her and just leave, she was the sort of person there was going to be no reasoning with and being yelled and sworn out in a public car park isn't really for me.

I put this out of my mind and today went to the car park to pick up some items for Mum from Boots. Once again, there were no BB spaces free and around a dozen P&C spaces unoccupied. Today is a 'bad' day - I am in a lot of pain and walking more than a few steps at a time is difficult and I needed my walker. So I reluctantly parked in a P&C space, knowing that I would be little more than 5 minutes to pick up some medication. And yes, once again when I returned to my car, there was a young Mum waiting for me by her car (parked next to me). And yes, once again I received a berating. This lady was a different model to the previous angry woman - she politely asked me if I was aware I had parked in a P&C space - I was completely honest and said yes, hence why I had displayed my blue badge. Maybe I should have lied and pleaded ignorance, as at this point she changed - having ascertained I had knowingly parked here, she promptly called me selfish and said she was off to find a security officer to report me and my selfishness. The source of her fury seemed to be that she said she wouldn't dream of parking in a BB bay if all the P&C spaces were full. I pointed out that she has a choice whether to walk a little further or not, I usually don't. I suggested she maybe should have considered this before deciding whether to have children, if it was to become so important to her, she said it's nothing to do with not wanting to walk, and everything to do with the safety of parents and their children, apparently it isn't safe for a Mother to be pushing a young baby in a pram around a busy car park. The way my legs operate most days, I wouldn't be particularly safe walking on bubble wrap!

I am more distressed, rattled and upset about these two incidents than I probably should be. With my own middle age, the impending mortality of both my parents, together with both my nieces recently having had their first babies, perhaps my own child-free status is playing on my mind at the moment, although I don't think I am the 'woe is me' type. I am not an unhappy, bitter old bag (honestly!) - I've got a fantastic husband, and a great job; I've had a lot in my life to be so very thankful for. Children of our own would have been the icing on the cake, but it's never been the be-all and end-all. On both occasions, whilst being sweetly polite to these women, more than anything I wanted to scream at them to be damn thankful for what they've got and just go and enjoy it. Having a blue badge is not a choice for me, to have had children would have been - that's how I see the difference.

I really would like to get some opinions on this emotive subject, more to try and understand the perspective of these two women. I have no idea if P&C spaces are 'legal' spaces as are BB bays, but even if they are, if there are dozens of them available and not being used, what is the real harm of a BB holder using one? I'm not convinced that P&C spaces aren't actually a marketing ploy conjured up by the retailers, as typically these spaces now tend to be nearer shops' entrances than actual BB ones!

I'm interested in all opinions, particularly those that can put a different spin on this and make me see it from the point of view of these two women. One of my 'new Mum' nieces has joined in the attack on me - she too believes that I have acted selfishly and reiterated how difficult it is to get baby/child seats out of a car without sufficient space around them. I do understand that. But thinking about it, if the situation was reversed and BB spaces were available where P&C ones weren't, I doubt very much I would begrudge a parent or guardian parking in one if it was obvious they needed to!

(I've just realised how long this post is, apologies if you made it this far down and are still with me 😂)

Thanks,

Beatrix x

think you misunderstood me(or I worded it badly)
I have been on these type of threads for years. my now adult dc is a wheelchair user, so I am always on that side.
its the -v- in the thread titles that concern me.
wheelchair space is for wheelchair users.
BB holders can park in P&C bays.
just don't like the versus bit,

Hi again - I just really need to point out here (and I am on your side, by the way, I think the people who did spoke to you the way they did were in the wrong) that this isn't the case on privately owned land. And everyone telling you it's illegal for people to park in blue badge spaces in private car parks, or that you can park anywhere in a private car park with a blue badge are also wrong - it's on roads maintained by the council and and council car parks that this is true.

I just really needed to point that out because you're getting some very bad advice on here!

In reality the problem isn't so much people parking in the wrong places, and although obviously that's an issue, most people don't do that. The problem really is supermarkets underestimating how many disability spaces they need, if you're noticing on multiple occasions that they're all full. Businesses are required under the Equality Act to make their businesses accessible, although there's actually no requirement for that access to be parking, but that's one of the ways that they prove that they're fulfilling their legal obligation to make their business accessible if they have large car parks and that's the main route to access the store.

There's an argument to be made that they're not fulfilling this requirement if the spaces are constantly full - they're either not monitoring misuse of them well enough, or they're not providing enough for the local population. So why not complain to the supermarket? The last thing any supermarket wants to hear is a person with a disability telling them they're not providing adequate access, because that IS a criminal offense, even on private land!

This got really convoluted :D @Marths I was referring to the person who screamed at the OP for parking in the P&C bay as a rude idiot. Hope that clarifies!

@GeekyThings

Hi again - I just really need to point out here (and I am on your side, by the way, I think the people who did spoke to you the way they did were in the wrong) that this isn't the case on privately owned land. And everyone telling you it's illegal for people to park in blue badge spaces in private car parks, or that you can park anywhere in a private car park with a blue badge are also wrong - it's on roads maintained by the council and and council car parks that this is true.

I just really needed to point that out because you're getting some very bad advice on here!

Thanks, you are absolutely right. The car park in question here is a multi-shop retail park and the layout of the whole thing is a bit poor (and over subscribed) to be honest. Lots of people complain about the tight and difficult parking there, and indeed the other week, an elderly gentleman was knocked over by someone reversing out of a bay :-(

I'm assuming it's is a sub-contracted/privately operated car park (I will investigate the signage next time I'm there, as I do intend to write to them). On this basis, together with the fact that the P&C spaces do state they are for P&C use only, I massively try and avoid parking in them, as I'm assuming that I could be liable for a PCN if it is privately operated.

Parking....who knew it could be so complicated!

Older people are often frail, which is a form of disability, but they may not be "disabled" enough to earn a BB. They still may need closer, more spacious parking.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of BB permit abuse. I challenged a fit young man, who I knew personally, parking in a BB . He said the badge was for the car, so I told him his car wasn't disabled, the BB was for a named person, whatever car they were in. He removed it and parked else6

Probably the same self entitled people, kindly one.

Ambulatory wheelchair users!

I have absolutely no issue with BB holders using P&C spaces. I challenge everyone I see with out a baby, the first question I ask is do you have a BB?

What I do mind is people without BB's designating themselves to be worthy of something that is not intended for them, because they said so. If you don't qualify for a BB you park in a normal space. Not take it away from BB holders or parents who need it.

It is impossible to get a baby carrier out of or back in to a car with out enough space. I once had to climb in through my boot with baby because two idiots had parked too close on both sides and I was on my own. Toddlers are easier but the extra space helps.

BB users can park anywhere convenient for them.

My children are almost at the point where they can do their own seatbelts. I have back issues so need the space to get in and strap them in. Much prefer the p&C spaces that are further away but have a clear path rather than right next to the shop anyway (primarily because more people, busier so kids more distracted closer to shop). Would never ever challenge anyone as the spaces are not a legal requirement, although I would tut in my head and perfectly able people (especially when one adult jumps out and another stays in the car, another downside of the spaces being closer) but would never ever tut or question a blue badge.

That sounds so awful, overcrowded car parks are such a danger! We have a few car parks like that here, and I posted a link earlier in the thread pointing out that cars have increased on average by over 55% since the minimum sizing for parking spaces was made - if they were correctly sized, they probably wouldn't need to make special spaces for parents with kids in the first place.

But I think blue badge space provision just isn't keeping up with her number of people who now need them, and that's even more urgent a problem.

They should really update the guidelines on private car parks and what kind of provision they need to be making, as well as what owners should be required/compelled to do if it isn't adequate (for example I think one guideline should be that if there isn't a blue badge space available then using P&C spaces is allowed with blue badge use, it shouldn't be up to the owners to decide whether or not to allow it, it should be a minimum to have that as a car parking rule if you have blue badge and P&C spaces). It shouldn't be questionable or open to debate, and you certainly shouldn't be having to worry about getting fined!

@ForeverFailing

I think you are unreasonable taking a P&C space but only because in my area the P&C parking are like gold dust.
There is nothing worse than someone taking one up when the don’t have a child. They are there for a reason, to enable parents to manoeuvre prams/trolleys with a small baby/child.
Use the blue badge section, if there are no spaces then either wait or find a normal space.

I can think of something worse, this scenario: a lot of disabled people don't have the luxury of going out whenever or wherever they want on a whim. They often have to wait for a 'good' day where they feel well and able enough to actually leave the house on their own, even for a short journey or outing. So, having overcome this challenge already, and loaded wheelchairs or any other mobility equipment they need into the car, imagine they get to where they want to go, only to have to turn round and go home again as they couldn't find a parking space. I understand that more room is also needed for someone with a toddler or baby and have no argument with that. BUT...the majority of parents using P&C spaces do have the option of using a normal space, albeit it might mean having to use a space much further away from the shops, where there are usually many spaces not being used (because they are 'too far' away from the shops for convenience).
If I have my Mum with me, I have to use a space that is wider and near to where we need to be, no matter. I simply can't manage her, her wheelchair and me without these spaces. For my own disability, I have 3 mobility aids - a walker, a self-propelling wheelchair and an electrical mobility scooter. If I'm having a 'good' day and can get away with using just my walker, I HAVE to use a space as close to where I want to be as possible, as I have limited walking distance tolerance. If I use my self-propelled wheelchair, I could manage in a normal space (as long as I can open my car door completely to get out) and provided nobody is going to block my boot access to get my wheelchair in and out. However, I still need to be reasonably close to my destination - wheeling yourself in a wheelchair is in itself pretty exhausting, and propelling myself a distance across a busy car park is not an option, unfortunately.
The only time I genuinely don't require a wider bay and/or need to be close to my destination is if I have my husband with me and my mobility scooter. My husband hates parking next to anyone and will ALWAYS park right out of the way. He has no objection to walking half a mile if it means he's out of the way, and when I am on my mobility scooter, I love him parking as far away as possible, as I get to be independent in the fresh air (and leave him behind while I wheelspin off into the distance). Unfortunately, as I can't physically put my scooter in and out of the car, I can only use this option when I've got an able-bodied person with me to do this. So, if I can on occasion use a normal space, I don't see why a parent with a child can't do so.

Amazing how much shit you get off people who have absolutely no idea of their own circumstances 😂 You asked for opinions and gave you mine.
FWiW I am a full time carer for a physically disabled mother and a mentally disabled DS. I use blue badge bays because of my mother. She is immobile and can not walk with a stick and can’t use a mobility scooter. She is reliant on me to push her in a wheelchair. I still don’t use P&C bays, and yes we have had to park elsewhere when disabled bays are full.

Being a disabled person defending the right for disabled people to have the sole use of disabled parking bays doesn't make mean my posts are angry, no matter how many times you patronisingly imply they are. That's your interpretation not reality.

Still not the same thing. And it’s not ‘shit’ it’s a snapshot of life with a disability.

I’m a wheelchair user and in much the same position as the OP. My condition causes pain, and like the OP I have to wait for a good day before I can go out, since I have no one to help with lifting the wheelchair in and out of the car or dealing with shopping etc. I have a hoist to help, so I need a BB space for the access they give around the car and to avoid the all too real possibility that someone will have ignored the signage on my drivers’ window and parked too close for me to get back in the car. The plain fact is that without a wide BB space available I’d have to abandon my plans and go home.

So if there are P&C spaces available I would use one.

With respect, being a carer for someone disabled and being disabled yourself are two different things. You can choose to park elsewhere and carry on - that may be difficult for you, but for someone with substantial disability it would be impossible and they would then be faced with the choice between using a P&C space or going home. It’s not ideal, but it’s not the selfish act you perceive it to be when, as you pointed out yourself, you consider the individual circumstances.

Op you have my sympathy.

I don't understand why P&C spaces need to be close to the shops. Put them at the back of the car park and have a footpath.
Parents need extra width to get kids in and out especially when they are using carseats and need help getting strapped in.

P&C spaces are abused by people who don't need them because they are lazy and don't want to walk. Also people find them easier as cars have got bigger but standard spaces haven't.

Whether or not it’s irrelevant or meaningless rather depends on whether or not you are disabled. And in the context we’re discussing here, it’s entirely relevant because the legal obligations do reflect need. Which is why P&C spaces are a courtesy and BB spaces are legally enforceable.

I don’t think it works in reverse to be honest. You have to consider the impact. If those spaces fill up, then potentially someone disabled can’t park and has to go home because someone who could easily have parked elsewhere is taking up the space they need.

Being called entitled etc is shit. And I haven’t said it was selfish.
I gave my opinion and I still stand by that opinion. There are far more dedicated blue badge spaces around and holders are also allowed to park 3 hours on double yellow lines. There is a whole floor level in a car park where I live, just for blue badge. In that same car park there are 2 P&C

I’ve used this approach too - as well as some less than polite ones with people just being arsey !! In one memorable encounter a woman broke into a run to try to stop me pulling into a space because the BB wasn’t on display. I was getting it out of my bag when she banged on my window demanding to know why I was taking up a disabled space, and that I didn’t ‘look very disabled’. I pointed to the badge now on display and she asked to see it. I told her if she wasn’t a traffic warden, police officer or parking attendant then she had no right to see it, and that blue badge rules were available online if she wanted more information. She was still arguing the point when I opened my door to get to the wheelchair now making its’ way down from the roof box. As I got into it, I asked her if I looked more disabled now, and wheeled away. Wish I’d had a camera because the look on her face said it all !!

Provision of BB spaces differs according to area, so again, you can’t generalise but act according to circumstance.

I want to know where all these car parks are with hundreds of empty disabled spaces! They certainly aren’t the ones I use with DS! Most places provide the minimum to meet the rules which are rubbish!

and at the end of the day their should be empty Disabled spaces so people who NEED them can use them.

P and C are a WANT they are handy but not the difference between a life in the house and not.