To tell pronoun announcing recruiter I don't want the job

[hursty900]

Had a call with a recruiter today- clearly female name, pic on linked in clearly female & then at start of call she announced 'my pronouns are she/her, may I ask what yours are?'... I mean she was polite, but it just seemed ridiculously performative (I too am clearly female) & has made me question if I want to work for this organisation. I have nothing against trans people etc I just really bristle with all the over the top performative stuff.. Am I just totally out of touch? My current company does not have any kind of stance in this area which I guess is terrible if you are one to name their pronouns..tbh I've got enough shit going on to have to explain my preferred pronouns to everyone I meet!

What on Earth are womyn’s rights?

@Mumtobabyhavoc I don't think that's overstating. From facial features, sex can be recognised nearly perfectly. There is a lot of research available on this. Apparently you can even be pretty accurate just from seeing pictures of a nose alone.

I'm not sure that's relevant to my point. What's wrong is the assumption that everyone has preferred pronouns. Maybe you do - all good. But not everyone does and the recruiter's question suggested she is also making the lazy (and not very equalities friendly) assumption that everyone does.

I don't understand this. Looking female is not about looking pretty. It's about wider pelvis etc. etc. I am living proof that you can have a female body and definitely not be pretty!

I backed out of a job application with a university at offer of interview, because on the application form there was an asterisk'ed box in which I was forced to state my pronouns, or the form wouldn't move on to the next question.
Whilst I filled it in begrudgingly as I was interested in the role, it grated on me for a while. It's symptomatic of a much larger issue and I felt was an indication of things to come had I got the job.
Not only that but there was a banner on the university website announcing they were "proud fo be partnered with Stonewall". That was the final nail.

So I agree wholeheartedly with standing by your principles and not pandering to what sounds like utterly nonsensensical virtue signalling from the recruitment consultant.

Agree with on the same side - bodily autonomy in adults springs to mind, whether that be the right to know as an adult that you want to transition and live as a trans man, or if you're a woman that you know you want an abortion, and that "what if you change your mind or can't have kids in the future".... for example
Another being policing femininity whether that be clothes or behaviour not being "ladylike" enough
It affects us all.

I think for a lot of people it would make them uncomfortable - it’s not necessary.

I genuinely don't get what you mean by you don't have preferred pronouns.
Presuming you're female, you honestly don't mind if people were to repeatedly call you he and him as it doesn't matter to you as you don't have any preferred ones?
That was my point

Isn't a name the easiest thing to be referred to when not there, and the ultimate respect to who you are/ individuality..... So my signature with my name is good.

I don't think you need to be a scholar to see the flaws in your argument though. For one thing, looking in the mirror thinking 'that's wrong' is something many non-trans people feel. I hated, literally hated, my body through adolescence and did all sorts of bad things to it to make it better (bulimia being one thing). But entrenching a view about being a proper women (ask India Willoughby more about that...) meaning you have to wear frilly, silky knickers, and make up and look pretty is damaging to those teenage girls who like me wanted to die because they hated their body so much. To believe in trans one needs to entrench damaging stereotypes. It's very unkind to many people. Secondly, women are a marginalised group and men (TW) are trying to remove their protections. This is the exact opposite of the fight which gay people had to fight. Men are trying to harass lesbians into sleeping with them and are infiltrating their dating spaces. The marginalised group here are not the men.

I wouldn't care. If someone wants to make themselves look stupid by calling me "he", they can.

Fair enough. Being repeatedly called he by people would bother me though.

Yes.
The whole topic is rather sticky and as i said previously, I don't have all the answers. I just know I can't abide discrimination and exclusion and I don't believe accepting and supporting rights for some means reducing rights for others. I know there's a peaceful way forward to include everyone. Bodily autonomy is a big one for me and I don't think we can pick and choose who gets that right.

Bodily autonomy is a big one for me and I don't think we can pick and choose who gets that right.
Definitely agree

But do you ever get called "he" by accident?

If not, I assume that, like 99.9% of other women, you are easily identifiable as a woman.

So if someone called you "he" repeatedly, it wouldn't be because they actually thought you were a man, but because they thought it would upset you.

It would reflect badly on them, not you.

Exclusion is a very charged word.

Do you think it's wrong to exclude male bodied people from women's rape crisis groups and sports?

I said upthread that I've been called a man before.
You might find that fine if it was to happen to you, I don't though.

I really don't care. Pronouns have no meaning any more. I don't identify as a woman so if someone calls me 'she' then I have no idea whether they're using it as a sex-based pronoun or whether they wrongly (and imo disrespectfully assume that I buy into regressive gender ideologies). So, whatever. Call me whatever. It really doesn't bother me if people call me he. I have already decided that if forced to state pronouns, I will go with he/ him or perhaps he/ hers or some combination. I am not 'gender conforming' because to me that means I am some sort of trad wife. So I guess in the world of fluid meaning and moveable truths, I as much identify as a man as I do a woman. Why is it so hard to accept that some people just don't have preferred pronouns?

But the question is not one of bodily autonomy. If men want to get themselves castrated, no-one here has argued they should be stopped. That doesn't make them a woman though and that is the relevant point.

If someone is referring to me as he/she etc, chances are I'm not actually in the room so wouldn't be aware. If I'm in the room, it's blatantly obvious I'm female.

As a dc, I was always told that it was rude to use pronouns when you know a person's name. Maybe we should just revert back to this?

Why is it so hard to accept that some people just don't have preferred pronouns?*
It's not hard to accept, I was genuinely asking.
You don't mind being seen as either, that's fine then.
Others don't want to be referred to as a man if they're not.
Equally valid

Typed out a couple responses but had to delete.

As I said, many subparts and sticky. 🤷‍♀️

OK but why did you quote me in saying this? My point was some people don't care. You seem to be disagreeing with me but are accepting that some people just don't care? Was your point just that some people do care? Cos that was never in doubt.

I was referring to trans men.
As in born female - bodily autonomy affects both trans men and women who are not trans.
Should it not be bodily autonomy for both groups?

Ok, well I guess we will never know what you think.

I think excluding male bodied people is literally the whole point of women's sports and I don't actually care if some of them find that upsetting. I doubt they're as upset as the female athlete who was cheated out of her Olympic place by Laurel Hubbard.