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Dog walker killed by her own XL Bully Breed dog.

421 replies

BethDuttonsTwin · 17/05/2023 18:30

NOT a pack of 8 dogs as was reported repeatedly with concurrent complete slating of all professional dog walkers.

Absolutely awful. So many of us who have worked with dogs knew this would be the outcome and that packs of 8 dogs do not behave in this way.

After investigations are complete we are now told that the only dog destroyed was the walkers own XL Bully Breed dog. Over and over again it is these dogs and still today I see a man strutting around my locale with two of these type dogs, both unneutered and off lead 🤷🏼‍♀️

OP posts:
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Lilacsbloominspring · 22/05/2023 11:51

Well, quite. Babies are clearly extremely vulnerable.

I don’t know why I’m pointing this out as people just keep bleating ‘but spaniels’. Why? You want me to agree that all dogs can bite, of course they can. You want me to agree all dogs can kill? No. No, they cannot.

Emotionalsupportviper · 22/05/2023 12:15

WisherWood · 21/05/2023 22:06

@izimbra I wasn't arguing that they're inherently more aggressive, but that they're more likely to bite, under current circumstances. The quotes you give don't contradict that. They acknowledge that there is no level playing field and that these breeds may be trained to bite more.

In terms of examining the stats on dog bites, I think there's a lot going on:
How many of each breed are there?
Is the breed correctly identified?
What's its socialisation and training been like?
Does its bite strength mean its more likely to turn up in the stats?

Part of the problem is that we don't really know how often dogs are biting. The numbers are probably a triangle, with a comparatively large number of minor bites at the bottom, that don't require treatment and so don't show up in that stats. That then rises through bites that do require treatment up the small number of fatalities at the top.

I don't think these are inherently bad dogs in some way. I've known some really lovely SBTs for example. But the thing with bull breeds and mastiffs is they are large and powerful and they do seem to attract owners who cannot cope with this. And I've had to split up fights between these dogs. It's a horrific thing to do. I don't know if you've witnessed those kinds of fights but you can hear the flesh ripping. It's fucking grim.

the thing with bull breeds and mastiffs is they are large and powerful and they do seem to attract owners who cannot cope with this. And I've had to split up fights between these dogs. It's a horrific thing to do. I don't know if you've witnessed those kinds of fights but you can hear the flesh ripping. It's fucking grim.

This ⬆

The strength of even a small dog is surprising. The strength of these dogs is terrifying!

I've also had to split up fights. If they have a grip they don't let go easily. - they only release a grip if they want to get a better one. As was discussed upthread you need to impede their breathing to make them let go - choke them with a collar while (if you can - not always possible or safe) pushing their noses into the dog they have hold of . They are then forced to gasp for breath and must be very quickly pulled away. If you try to drag them away when they have a hold, they will cause a lot of damage

Fights are horrifying to see and hear, and are dangerous to get involved in. The attacker will be eager to cause damage, and the victim will just be desperately biting at anything trying to defend itself.

Emotionalsupportviper · 22/05/2023 12:18

Lilacsbloominspring · 22/05/2023 03:55

It really isn’t about aggression.

Let’s say someone did a study on fish, and concludes all fish will bite humans. So there is no difference between swimming in the sea where minnows will nibble your toes and where a great white shark will bite you. They will both bite you! So what’s the difference?

Can people honestly not see how stupid this insistence that some types of dog are no more dangerous than others is? Maybe some Yorkies are nasty. I accept that, I’ve known some horrid ones. Maybe some minnows harbour a deep desire to eat human flesh. Having an aggressive temperament isn’t enough in itself, it is the sheer ability to do damage.

Nice analogy. Thank you.

Emotionalsupportviper · 22/05/2023 12:23

GettingStuffed · 22/05/2023 09:59

The American Kennel Club recommends all American bulldog types as ideal family pets. Is it the breed itself or is it the way it's being bred in the UK.

I really want a dog but until there is more control over dogs in public I'm not trying to convince DH we should have one

The American Kennel Club recommends all American bulldog types as ideal family pets. Is it the breed itself or is it the way it's being bred in the UK.

Rubbish - they kill and maim loads of people in the US. There are bad breeders and bad owners everywhere - and the result is dangerous dogs.

PinkRobotDuck · 22/05/2023 12:26

I think part of the problem is that nowadays we only have experience of neutered dogs. A bit of growly barking at another dog.

In the 1960s I remember horrible fights - quite scary, between untreated dogs -also dogss and bitches getting locked ….

Lilacsbloominspring · 22/05/2023 12:47

Re America:

41 deaths in 2020. 27 were pit bulls. The remaining fourteen were:
four ‘pack of dogs’
two German shepherds
one Belgian shepherd
two mastiffs
two bulldogs
three ‘unspecfied’

43 deaths 2021. 26 pit bulls. Remaining seventeen are:

Seven ‘packs of dogs’
four german shepherds
two cane corsos
one Staffordshire bull terrier
one St Bernard
one mixed breed
One for the ‘but allllll dogs are dangerous’ - Shetland sheepdog X Corgi.

2022 saw 27 deaths:

five pit bulls
One ‘bully’
one german shepherd
one mastiff
Two Rottweilers
Two mastiffs
one American bulldog
four ‘packs of dogs’
one husky
one Dogo Argentinos
One Great Dane (pack)
one husky
one English bulldog
three unknown / undisclosed
one Labrador retriever mix
one Dutch shepherd

In 2023 so far we have six deaths

Three pit bulls
Two American Staffordshire Terriers
Pack of dogs - two Rottweilers, two mixed.

So in the 2020s so far, out of 117 deaths, sixty one are pit bulls. If we extend that to all bull breeds, we have sixty nine out of the 117.

There seems to be a problem with ‘packs of dogs’ in America - quite shocking - but it does rather go to show that for all people like to pour scorn on the dangerous dogs act, that’s still a lot of lives lost.

SidekickSylvia · 22/05/2023 14:53

Are American Staffordshire Terriers the same as American Pit Bull Terriers? They look the same.

WiddlinDiddlin · 22/05/2023 14:54

SidekickSylvia · 22/05/2023 14:53

Are American Staffordshire Terriers the same as American Pit Bull Terriers? They look the same.

Yep. Though I am sure some will argue that they are different, because frankly someone always will (see also: German Shepherd vs Alsatian).

WisherWood · 22/05/2023 15:21

I thought Alsatians were named after Alsace and it depended on whether Alsace was part of Germany or France as to which you called them? Never mind. That's not a rabbit hole I need to go down.

Emotionalsupportviper · 26/05/2023 17:19

SidekickSylvia · 22/05/2023 14:53

Are American Staffordshire Terriers the same as American Pit Bull Terriers? They look the same.

I don't think so. I think that both are bigger than British staffies (though there is a wide range of sizes and builds in the breed), but I think that they are two different dogs.

And Ambles (American bulldogs) are different again (but again there are different "types" - some are spaniel sized but powerful, others much bigger, like boxers).

There has been so much mixing and bastardising of breeds I don't think anyone knows where we are now.

Emotionalsupportviper · 26/05/2023 17:20

*Ambulls, not Ambles

(Look, autocarrot - mind your own damn business, will you!)

Keygraer · 31/05/2023 11:15

What a surprise! Yet another Pitbull attack. That's after reading about a Pitbull savaging the face of a horse and Police trying to locate it's piece of shit owner.

XL bullys and the like are Pitbull types and need dealing with under the DDA. Seized if not muzzled in public and neutered.

Sick to death of hearing about these bastard dogs attacking animals and people.

Mirabai · 31/05/2023 11:22

Agreed. I’m not sure why authorities are so slow to act on this. How many people need to die?

WiddlinDiddlin · 31/05/2023 19:30

Do you think its as simple as someone (who? Prime Minister?) standing up tomorrow and saying 'all xyz dogs are banned - anyone who has gone one, hand them in to (where?) to be destroyed or you're going to prison for owning an illegal breed'...

First, they have to write new legislation to add a breed/type to the banned list.

To do that they have to figure out what measurements fit that breed/type - they'll do as they did with pitbulls and nick the measurements from the AKC or UKC breed standards for American Bulldogs, and then work out what degree of tolerance from that standard/set of measurements works.

That'll probably be down to DEFRA to do that.

Then actually get that bill/amendment scheduled, consulted, read, several times round... before passing it.

Then work out what to do with all the actual dogs - there is an exempt dog register for pitbull types that are considered not dangerous - those have all been to court, proven themselves (expert assessment) to not be dangerous and been added - with pitbull type dogs now that involves the dog being seized and held in kennels until it can be assessed and determined to be 'type' or not, and then dangerous or not.

Hopefully that won't happen and dogs can just be added within a certain time frame IF the owners fulfill certain criteria (being over 18, 'of good standing' ie not having a criminal record or subject to a dog control order already etc).

Those dogs will then have to be on a lead and muzzled in public for the rest of their lives which hampers training, socialisation/habituation (relevant as this increases the chances of accidents/injury/aggression) and can put their lives at risk (you can't take the muzzle off if they're choking for example). They also have to be neutered and insured (only one company offers this insurance I think, it is specialist). If that insurance lapses the dog will be siezed and euthanised.

You're looking at well over a year I'd say before all the 'new type' dogs are either dead or on muzzles/leads... if we lived in a perfect world, which we do not.

In reality, we'll see a huge increase in dumped dogs, Daily Wail stories about people taking their beloved pets to be put down despite having done nothing wrong, and all the irresponsible twats who want a dog to frighten or actually attack people will continue to do as they do already.

We'll also see huge misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the law, from local authority level down to man on the street level, with a huge sector of the population NOT understanding what is or is not legal - and that tends to cause issues too.

Long term if you actually did successfully eradicate all 'xl bully/american bully' types, we would end up with a different range of potentially dangerous, large, heavy or fast and bitey breeds (Malinois, Dutch Herders, Tibetan Mastiffs, Caucasian Ovcharkas, Akitas).

I doubt we will see dog attacks on people go down though, not in the longer term anyway.

EerieSilence · 31/05/2023 19:42

Windbeneathmybingowings · 17/05/2023 18:39

I saw a drunk man pulling one along just days ago. Probably weighed more than he did.

This will keep happening and people will keep crying “it’s not the breed”. We don’t keep rhinos or bears as pets so why people think this breed (and other large breeds) is suitable for living in a house with a family I don’t understand.

We have a Dobermann. She's the best. Very social, sweet, loves children and is very calm around them. Never gave us a reason to worry, mainly because we took our time to train her and socialise her. She had had encounters with small aggressive dogs who were reactive and even got attacked by them because they were free and she was on the leash. They are alive and untouched, because she didn't even entertain the idea of attacking them. People need to train their dogs. The big breeds can cause more damage so they should get training automatically but they're not dangerous per default. We have been using our dog to babysit our daughter since she was 11 and knew we could come late in the night and our daughter would be safe, because while excellent at keeping her company on the sofa while she was playing xbox, any danger coming from the outside and she would know it.

Mirabai · 31/05/2023 22:42

@WiddlinDiddlin I know how legislation works thanks, the first thing required is for the government to announce they’re taking action. That’s where it starts and that’s what we’re waiting for.

There were 15 fatal dogs attacks by pit bulls over 10 years when the government decided to ban pit pulls, whereas there’s been 6 fatalities from XLs this year alone.

WiddlinDiddlin · 01/06/2023 03:30

Goody for you @Mirabai but many people have no idea how it works and genuinely believe banning a breed will resolve the issue overnight!

The post above, this is the sort of thing that scares the shit out of me... that poster absolutely believes they're a responsible dog owner - and yet they leave an 11 year old child with a big dog.

"We have been using our dog to babysit our daughter since she was 11 and knew we could come late in the night and our daughter would be safe, because while excellent at keeping her company on the sofa while she was playing xbox, any danger coming from the outside and she would know it."

They're expecting a DOG to understand the difference between dangerous stranger and innocent stranger - something frankly their child may not be able to do and even they may not be able to do.

What if their kid invites in a friend one evening, and the dog takes a dislike to them and one or both kids gets hurt, or worse, (and children DO get badly injured or killed when trying to replicate handling/training they've seen adults doing with family dogs).

What if their dog is hurt and the child gets too close or tries to help and gets bitten - I have a friend whose gentle, non-aggressive sighthound caused severe damage to the bones and tendons in their hand in such a situation (the dog shortly died of her severe injuries). They were big and strong enough that this was just a serious injury, had they been a much smaller person...

They would have sworn on Grandmas life that dog would never hurt anyone (and I lived with her for several months, it was not in her normal nature to do so, absolutely not) - but dogs in pain and fear and panic may not behave normally. An adult should understand that risk but a child almost certainly will not.

If this sort of thing is what someone who fully believes they are a responsible adult, does, then it becomes easier to see how utter morons take such stupid risks!

ClareBlue · 16/09/2023 01:56

EerieSilence · 31/05/2023 19:42

We have a Dobermann. She's the best. Very social, sweet, loves children and is very calm around them. Never gave us a reason to worry, mainly because we took our time to train her and socialise her. She had had encounters with small aggressive dogs who were reactive and even got attacked by them because they were free and she was on the leash. They are alive and untouched, because she didn't even entertain the idea of attacking them. People need to train their dogs. The big breeds can cause more damage so they should get training automatically but they're not dangerous per default. We have been using our dog to babysit our daughter since she was 11 and knew we could come late in the night and our daughter would be safe, because while excellent at keeping her company on the sofa while she was playing xbox, any danger coming from the outside and she would know it.

Until something triggers her inbuilt instincts that you know nothing about or understand. Then she goes back to her primitive self.
Numerous examples of dogs as you describe attacking people and children. They are animals with animal DNA. We do not know or understand their instincts and you can not train them out of an animal.

BethDuttonsTwin · 16/09/2023 06:18

BethDuttonsTwin · 17/05/2023 19:01

I’ll return to this thread when the results of the inquest are available.

And here I am, whether anyone “gives a damn” or not 😁 I see someone has already posted the link to the article. I was right and I knew this would be the outcome from almost the first moment I heard about this awful occurrence.

OP posts:
BethDuttonsTwin · 16/09/2023 06:23

Also interesting that after the snark, denial and pushing back on my assertions on this thread we are now at a point where these breeds have killed several more people/children and are set to be banned.

People will get round it of course. This article is a good explanation of how and what could be done to counter the idiots that want to keep big, vicious fighting dogs as pets, while forcing everyone in close proximity to assume that same risk.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12522513/amp/American-Bully-XL-dogs-giant-mutants-not-official-breed-says-expert-exactly-Rishi-Sunaks-new-ban-work.html

American Bully XL's are giant 'mutants and not an official breed'

An expert has said the banning of American bully XL's may just be the 'tip of the iceberg for the UK's dog problems following the news that Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has outlawed the hounds today.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12522513/amp/American-Bully-XL-dogs-giant-mutants-not-official-breed-says-expert-exactly-Rishi-Sunaks-new-ban-work.html

OP posts:
Ozarkz · 16/09/2023 06:54

My Facebook is absolutely full of people posting “stop bullying our breed!” Posts, it’s fucking ridiculous.

Another one is “in the 70s they blamed the Dobermann, in the 80s they blamed the Rottweiler … when will they blame the owners?”

well for a start there were never weekly killings by either the Dobermann or the Rottweiler - secondly ALL breeds are subject to irresponsible owners.

I know for a fact there are shit loads of irresponsible Labrador owners so where are the Labrador attacks? How come you never hear of cockapoo attacks? Because that’s a breed with a shit load of irresponsible owners! “But they’re small!” You say … ok … how come you never see in the news “man killed by Great Dane” “child killed by pack of Labradors” … it IS the fucking breed!! They should have been banned years ago, why on earth would someone want such a dog to start with? They have literally no redeeming features. They are not intelligent, they are not easy to train, they are not good with other pets … what’s the attraction? Other than a status symbol?

When people say it’s all about how you bring them up … ok, I’ll get myself a greyhound and train it to herd sheep, should work right? As breed traits don’t matter?
maybe I’ll get a golden retriever and train it to be a personal protection dog?

Breed traits matter. These dogs were bred to fight, it matters.

bombastix · 16/09/2023 08:20

The people that own these dogs enjoy the sense of power and fear they generate.

They are precisely the kind of people who should not own a large dog.

I have never seen a decent person own one. Stupid people yea, but not anyone respectful. Ban the dogs and introduce licensing for all other large breeds and insurance. Responsible owners will do this. The idiots that don't and keep large dogs can be prosecuted and banned for their irresponsibility.

Ozarkz · 16/09/2023 08:29

bombastix · 16/09/2023 08:20

The people that own these dogs enjoy the sense of power and fear they generate.

They are precisely the kind of people who should not own a large dog.

I have never seen a decent person own one. Stupid people yea, but not anyone respectful. Ban the dogs and introduce licensing for all other large breeds and insurance. Responsible owners will do this. The idiots that don't and keep large dogs can be prosecuted and banned for their irresponsibility.

Totally agree. I work in the community and one time had to go into a house with one of these dogs. I’m a dog lover but I do NOT like being around these dogs. They ARE dangerous. I asked for the dog to be secured and the owner said “why? He’s friendly” the husband then ‘joked’ “unless you’re a cat, he decapitated a cat a few days ago, it was a right bloody mess” as if this was perfectly bloody normal!! Oh and he doesn’t like the postman apparently … and they now no longer get mail delivered after the dog took a chunk out of a postman’s arm … but other than that he’s a sweetheart 🙄

I’ve never known a decent person own one of these dogs because a decent person wouldn’t want to.

Whilst they’re at it they should ban American bulldogs because they will be the next go to breed for idiots along with the Cane Corso

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