To be appalled by school toilet restrictions

[GoodWitch65]

Had a period talk with my DD age 11 and mentioned to have a pouch with sanitary products to be kept in her school bag just in case. She told me they are not allowed to use toilets at school during the class, only during the break. I was very surprised, growing up in European country this was never a problem in my school, everyone was allowed to use toilets whenever they needed. Spoke to a friend of mine, her kids go to another school, apparently this a standart practice I just can't wrap my head around how and why? My friend's DS used to have frequent kidney infections and wasn't allowed to use the toilet when he needed to, she had to get a note from GP to make him 'exempt' from the rules so he could use the toilet. Also her DD has started her period and had asked to use the toilet but was told no, poor girl had bled through her clothes, left a blood stain on her chair and got told off by the teacher for doing so! My friend sent numerous complaints to school but no to avail. I feel like I want to make some changes in 'toilet rules' at school but not sure where to start. It's a basic human need, even prisoners get to use the toilet when they need, why would primary school children be denied?

@Fairislefandango behaviour is so bad because society is crumbling because the Tories have stripped the country to the ground. There are no social services, no mental health services, and no communities. This is all by deliberate design. Schools are picking up the pieces (barely) and poor behaviour in toilets is just one small symptom of a much much wider problem. Don't say this isn't political, it very much is.

I think schools may vary and it probably is a minority of kids who are persistently taking the piss. But they're all capable of having a moment where they just can't be arsed OR they can't cope. But the thing is that if there is nothing in place to prevent them skipping, a child who is already struggling then misses a lesson, feels even more lost, can't cope, misses more lessons, misses school completely and before you know it you may have a persistent non attender which can become a big problem for that child's entire family. It isn't about not trusting them or punishing them, it is ensuring they are alright either in the immediate future (by not letting people who may actually do some harm to them roam the corridors with no supervision during class) and in the long-term by not just letting them leave class whenever they fancy.

I'm waffling on here I know! I'm on my phone and trying to do loads at the same time so not being very concise

Often kids aren't allowed to the toilet between lessons. They have to go straight to the next lesson and ask.

SkippingTown
Agreed.
It's a sad state of affairs but it's known that people come here seeking certain stories, so even if a poster is genuine (as it looks like this poster is), it's always worth being aware that others seek out toilet threads.

I'm really glad someone mentioned this years ago.

I can’t wrap my head around preventing menstruating girls from using the toilet whenever they need it. Or anyone tbh.

If I’m in a course or conference at work and need the loo, I’ll get up and go to it. I’m not going to wait until the break when they’ll be a queue anyway, and sit there bursting until then. I can’t concentrate if I need the loo anyway so it’s pointless to wait.

These threads about 'kids should be allowed to go to the toilet when they like' are always started by parents who assume that kids will only ask to go to the toilet when they need to go to the toilet.

There is generally surprise/horror to find out that kids ask to go to the toilet for other reasons.

Those other reasons include:

1. the kid is bored and wants to have a break
2. the kid has had a message to meet up with friends
3. the kid wants to meet up with girl/boyfriend for some alone-time
4. vaping
5. drug deals
6. self harm (including suicide attempts)
7. general mayhem - vandalism, wandering the corridors, bursting into other lessons
8. truancy - that kid has no intention of returning

The above reasons for a kid asking to go to the toilet are more common than a kid genuinely being desperate for the toilet.

Bearing that in mind, what should the school policy be when a kid asks to go to the toilet? A blanket 'yes'?

I bet you don’t have kids.

Our secondary starts at 8.30. There is one 10 minute break between lesson 2 and 3. It’s often a 5 minute walk from lesson 2 to lesson 3. There are queues for the toilets. There is often no time to just ‘go between lessons’. Lunch isn’t until 1.30pm. That can be too long from when a girl left home at maybe 7.30am.

Its so annoying when clueless people talk rubbish.

I remember from my childhood during an exam a girl needed the loo because her period started. The teacher didn't ask her or find out why, but I can still feel the horror of the sight of all that blood because she was refused leave.

It's sensible not to allow kids just to go out for a wee. You can hold on or go before class, but there should,be an exception for periods starting.

At school we were generally not allowed to go in lessons. The initial request was refused but if it was obvious a child was really desperate or unwell they would be one at a time. It was only ever occasional.

One of the local primaries used to give the kids (including the year one's) a 5 min break time detention for asking to go to the loo during class time - a few kids wet themselves - no surprise there.

I don’t recall a child ever wetting themselves in class in my entire school attendance. A couple of assembly faintings and a couple of vomitings but never that.

Schools are often not humane places - I think teachers must lose some of their humanity after a few years of teaching...or maybe they didn't have any to begin with. The rules and order matter more than feelings, despite the apparent awareness of the mental health crisis - our schools are a mess - what do you expect when they are asked to simultaneously compete with other schools for prime position on the league tables whilst operating on a shoestring budget? The dysfunctional approach to managing kids is inevitable.

I don’t think you realise how bad behaviour has got and how impossible it has become to control. If you speak to teachers they are in an impossible position. What do you expect teachers to do if a child refuses to go back to class? They can’t leave their class and go round searching. Some have no respect for authority, you can’t just expel them and what if their parents don’t back the school?

Some schools may be better than others, but there are schools where so many children come from households where there is no discipline and parents who do not back the school or reinforce good standards at home. Many schools are dealing with damaged children from the start and expected to just magically correct everything.

I used to do this until I got reprimanded by SLT for saying this to a child that asked before they'd even sat down after break.

Yes. It’s as if mumsnet thinks that posters are always genuine if they have a posting history. Not saying OP isn’t genuine, but a posting history doesn’t mean someone is genuine.

And regardless of that, even if a poster is genuine, mumsnet it seems, are happy to leave threads up threads that are known to attract ‘unsavoury sorts’.

Perfect28 · Today 10:10
@Fairislefandango behaviour is so bad because society is crumbling because the Tories have stripped the country to the ground. There are no social services, no mental health services, and no communities. This is all by deliberate design. Schools are picking up the pieces (barely) and poor behaviour in toilets is just one small symptom of a much much wider problem. Don't say this isn't political, it very much is.

That's a fancy analysis, but I think it's more to do with rotten parenting. The sort of parents whose children are never in the wrong and who oppose any teacher who tries to challenge them, often in a very threatening way - I've witnessed it too many times! Plus the huge problems of teachers having no real sanctions and schools not being able to get rid of disruptive and anti-social students.

An example: child has glasses slightly twisted while practising netball at lunchtime. The child asked me to straighten them, but I said it would be best for parent to take them to the optician and get it done properly (knew parent was a nightmare and didn't want any trouble). She then asked another teacher who, out of kindness, had a go and made things worse. Cue druggie mother invading school that afternoon screaming vile abuse at the Head and demanding to be reimbursed for the £300 designer glasses (which were easily repairable). Child was FSM but of course she had £300 glasses. These are the kind of parents we're up against - not the sort MNers may imagine. It's not just because of the Tories, or any govt, come to that.

Get your DD a supply of period underwear. Forget the pads.

I have had incontinence and overactive bladder since a teenager and have had to go to the toilet many times during class. It was very stressful having to sit in class uncomfortably bursting for a wee. Some teachers wouldn't let me go but most would. I would try to quickly go in between lessons but I had to rush, no time to wash hands or I'll be late for class. I also had very heavy periods where it felt like a lot of pressure in the bladder area. I would usually ask to go to the toilet during the first lesson of the day when I had heavy period. It would usually calm down throughout the day. I would be so relieved to go during the first lesson. All the period blood would all flood out into the toilet. If I wasn't allowed to go I would have leaked everywhere. I went to the toilet in all my GCSE exams, I still have the bladder issues.

Those saying that people without bladder conditions should be able to hold on until break, how do you control your poo? I don't poo the same time every day?! I work in a call centre and even we are allowed to go toilet when you need. At uni, you can just walk out of lectures to go toilet.

You'd get a toilet pass for medical issues.

Agreed.

This week alone I'm been punched on two occasions splitting up fights. No algologies from the students of course.

Yesterday we had the fire alarm set off twice in a row.

The boys toilets were flooded twice...it spread over 15m and flooded a quarter of my classroom. After that was fixed shoe polish was thrown over the walls and ceilings and vapes used to flood the toilets again...........this is a school rated good

Currently 6 adverts out for teachers

I don't understand why everyone keeps ignoring the safeguarding issues in their replies.

This happened to me regularly 34 years ago. It’s quite common for girls to bleed through their clothes when they start earlier or later than 12.

I used to go to the toilet during lessons when on my period because if I went at break time there would be a gang of girls outside the cubicles listening out for tampon/pad opening noises, trying to look under the doors and terrorising anyone on their period.

By secondary school they are more than mature enough to be aware of their bodily functions and plan accordingly by going to the toilet between lessons. Unless there is a serious medical issue (in which case a doctor's note would be available) a child of secondary school age shouldn't need to use the toilet more frequently like that. As for periods, it is not usual to come on with such force that flooding would be an issue, if their period is due they can wear liners and a very beginning period usually starts with spotting not such flow that they would need to be immediate excused, if a girl is having issues with a period then she needs to use products like as liners or period pants to lean to manage it, not disrupt the whole class by leaving the lesson and then coming back and needing to be caught up.

There should not be any real need for anyone to go to the toilet during a lesson really- except for a uti or similar. Period is not a valid reason - my daughter suffers with very very heavy periods and finds a heavy duty pair of period pants is enough for the school day - she does carry a spare pair of period pants.

giving up on tampons and sanitary towels was the best thing we both did.

pants are far more comfortable, quick wash and dry.

buy good quality ones.

unfortunately vaping in toilets is rife, as is children weeing deliberately over the floor or even up the wall (outstanding school)

and no you can’t just go when you like - it disturbs teaching and learning - periods are a fact of life and the maximum time between lessons is two hours.

one child goes they all go ones by one then or demand to go on mass

And the urge to pee is about 250 ml in the bladder for boys and it can hold twice or three times that.

don’t get me started on ‘my right to water’ drink a huge bottle - ask to go to the toilet 10 minutes later -then ask to go and fill up water drink another huge bottle ask to go to the toilet again - all human rights and then suddenly 40 minutes missed out of a 60 minute lesson and vandalism and water all over the floor

Cos all parents can afford and are willing to buy the decent quality period pants.

Lessons are longer than an hour in lots of schools, there often 2 back to back along with form time. That’s 3 hours. In our school, they then get a 10 minute break which in theory they can use the toilet for, but they need to walk to next lesson, have a drink, maybe a snack. With the toilet queues, there’s not time for many kids to use the toilet. So that leaves the option of lunch time, which in our school is 5 hours after school start time! And they get 30 minutes to eat, drink and use the busy toilets.

So yeah, there’s every need to use the toilet in lesson time.

@CoffeeCantata

Child was FSM but of course she had £300 glasses

I teach. I understand what teachers are up against. I don’t understand your comment above. Glasses for children on the NHS are very basic. If you want them to last ie. coated lenses or you need lenses thinning, the cost can easily run to £300. My current pair cost me £700 and yes, the frame is designer but that was £250 of the total cost.

Are you a teacher and judging a family on FSM in some way? Is your suggestion that children on FSM shouldn’t have a decent pair of glasses they actually want to wear? Or that they couldn’t possibly have cost that much because the family are on FSM?

It worries me that people in schools are so deeply judgemental of the children they teach and their backgrounds. My children were ‘ever 6’ for 6 long years whilst I was teaching - because I was entitled to FSM as a single parent whilst I did a PGCE! One of my children even attended the school I was working at during that time. Your apparent judgement is really troubling although I appreciate I may be reading it wrong

The problem with restricting toilet visits to breaks is the queues are massive and some kids end up having to go back to class before they've been.
My girls attend a huge inner London secondary.