To be appalled by school toilet restrictions

[GoodWitch65]

Had a period talk with my DD age 11 and mentioned to have a pouch with sanitary products to be kept in her school bag just in case. She told me they are not allowed to use toilets at school during the class, only during the break. I was very surprised, growing up in European country this was never a problem in my school, everyone was allowed to use toilets whenever they needed. Spoke to a friend of mine, her kids go to another school, apparently this a standart practice I just can't wrap my head around how and why? My friend's DS used to have frequent kidney infections and wasn't allowed to use the toilet when he needed to, she had to get a note from GP to make him 'exempt' from the rules so he could use the toilet. Also her DD has started her period and had asked to use the toilet but was told no, poor girl had bled through her clothes, left a blood stain on her chair and got told off by the teacher for doing so! My friend sent numerous complaints to school but no to avail. I feel like I want to make some changes in 'toilet rules' at school but not sure where to start. It's a basic human need, even prisoners get to use the toilet when they need, why would primary school children be denied?

Should a teenager have to do the same or should they be able to go to the toilet when they need to?

Yes, but in a large proportion of cases, they almost certainly don't really need to right now (or possibly at all).

The government needs unruly kids to be in schools otherwise they'd be causing havoc on the streets (see why we're not allowed to kick kids out on study leave anymore).

And schools need unruly kids to be in classrooms otherwise they'd be causing havoc in the corridors.

As a 40yo did you not change at break? I'm a teacher and always change at break or wear period pants.

As PPs have said, the kids asking to go, aren't usually desperate. They just want to piss around.

I went to a Grammar School and it was known to be strict on everything - we were allowed to use the loos when we needed to, I don’t remember there ever being a fuss or a rule made. I do feel my dcs Comp school was much stricter than my Grammar though, loads of petty rules about uniform, measuring hair, not wearing coats, the shoes that are hard to find - mustn’t be pumps, can’t be boots or look a bit like trainers - even though they show pumps on the website, the trainers for PE that should be all white, the non tucked in summer shirt the tucked in winter shirt, the must wear a blazer even in 25C, the ridiculously expensive pe kits - the list feels endless - I’m not surprised kids and parents rebel all these petty rules - eventually something has to give. Behaviour has declined and schools have responded by getting more and more draconian - I’m not convinced it’s working. The relationship between the school and the parents has deteriorated. Maybe it’s time to take a different approach - but schools are more likely to just get stricter in response.

I do feel my dcs Comp school was much stricter than my Grammar though.

No doubt it needs to be. I've taught in everything from inner city comps to grammar schools and a top independent girls' school. One of the best things about the latter was that it just didn't need to be strict.

I totally disagree with the idea that draconian uniform rules help with overall discipline, but I am very much in favour of strict rules over behaviour. The 'them vs us' atmosphere created by having to constantly enforce rules is horrible for teachers as well as students, but unfortunately the soft approach doesn't work. Students deserve to be able to learn and feel safe in school, and that means dealing with behaviour that prevents that. Unfortunately most schools aren't dealing with it well enough.

A poster hit on one of the reasons for stricter schools upthread. They intended it to be a derisory comment about a particular teacher but it is actually a valid depiction of the state of education:

My kid's Y4 teacher knocks 2 minutes off play for using toilet in class time, but she can't get the classroom drama/bullying under control to save her life, whereas there was absolutely nothing like this last year with the same cohort and an older, more experienced teacher. Pathetic.

The labelling of an inexperienced teacher as “pathetic” for being less good at behaviour management than a much more experienced one aside; schools are losing experienced teachers at a rate of knots. The proportion of teachers over 50 has dropped. We have one of the youngest teaching workforces in the OECD.

On top of that there’s a critical shortage of teachers so that kids are experiencing a constant churn of young, inexperienced teachers and supply teachers.

In addition, especially post pandemic, we are seeing a notable increase in “challenging” behaviour. Whether this is caused by the lack of teachers or is happening alongside it, it means that more and more schools cannot rely on experienced teachers to manage behaviour and are having to implement ‘systems’ to manage behaviour instead.

This is why I love the idea of well-meaning parents thinking that they can come into schools and ‘help’. With no particular skills, training or authority, they would find themselves very quickly out of their depth, and perhaps more appreciative of why things are not as straightforward to fix as they might seem.

Absolutely, @noblegiraffe . Imagine not being able to understand that people get better at their jobs with years of experience. Or thinking that inexperienced equals pathetic. Some people seem to think that, on qualifying, teachers are handed a magic wand that makes children behave, and presumably that teachers who can't automatically control a class perfectly haven't bothered to learn how the wand works.

Judging by threads on MN, plenty of parents have trouble dealing with the behaviour of their own one or two children, never mind thirty at a time. The response to that is usually 'Yes but teachers are trained. It's their job!' Yes. But you can't actually force a teenager to do something they refuse to do.

Fairislefandango and noblegiraffe you hit the nail on the head.
One of the classes I left had supply or inexperienced staff for most of an academic year. I have different people texting me asking if I want to do some work with them because they can't get enough experienced and strong teachers. The answer is no because I want to spend time with my family right now and I can't do that whilst firefighting at work.

Understandable, @LolaSmiles . I've come to the conclusion that the workload and the behaviour combined are just too much. I'm very fortunate to now be working in a school which has, comparatively speaking, virtually no behaviour problems. I'm early 50s and will probably stay until I retire!

Fairislefandango
That sounds nice. I used to work somewhere like that. It had it's issues but started off being a very happy environment.

A more pick-your-battles approach might help.
My kids were always in the proper uniform and were well-behaved - never had a problem - but it got to the point where I couldn't face reading another email from the HT about the bloody uniform after she went into extreme detail on how she would generously allow a particular haircut because she was all into inclusivity and multiculturalism but if it was a millimetre out of place they'd be sent home - all the goodwill was gone, every word she uttered was negative or just PR bullshit. As a parent you support, you volunteer, you provide, you donate, you turn up when you're asked but there is only so much you can listen to...death by 1000 by cuts, if you value support from parents you want to think about how you achieve that, how you communicate with them, what message you are sending them - how you avoid continually pissing them off. It works both ways. Not that it really matters any more now my kids have left - but goodwill once lost doesn't easily return.

A more pick-your-battles approach might help.

I agree entirely. There should be no more rules than are necessary to create a good, safe learning environment where students can achievetheir potential. Kids know full well which rules are useful and which aren't. So do teachers. SLT... not always so much. Like most teachers, I hate having to pick students up on uniform infringements. But I do it, because it's not ok for some teachers to uphold school policies and others to decide to ignore them.

That sounds nice. I used to work somewhere like that. It had it's issues but started off being a very happy environment.

It's fab. I've only been there since September and I absolutely love it. But we have a new Head (the last one was very popular and in post for 16 years). Changes are afoot...

Kids out of lessons, arranging to meet each other in toilets. How do you feel about that as a parent? Two teenagers caught having sex in a toilet. Later year 10 girl changes her story against year 11 boy. I will let you fill in the gaps.

Break duty? Always seems to fall on my heaviest day!

Did you go to a non selective school? Or selective (eg. Gymnasium)

Poor little girl!

Super!

Because they misbehave!

I used to work in a posh girls' school.

We had endless problems with the toilets and with students constantly asking to go in lesson time.

On the plus side the school could afford to repair them when they were vandalised.

Whatever the issue is, it's not just restricted to one social class/type of school.

Also, the state grammars (comment up thread) have large classes not small ones. Up to 34 in 7-9; nearly as large in sixth form for popular subjects.

But by and large the students can cope with the work and want to be there.

That isn't the case in my comp and wasn't the case in the independent.

That happened to me a couple of times.
Also, I dripped onto the corridor floor the first time I used tampons 😔

Managed to rub it away with my foot. That was the day from absolute hell. I don’t know why I didn’t just go home.

Spent the afternoon in maths, sitting on my coat with every muscle tensed up. It was horrendous.

I have never felt greater relief than when a friend offered me a lift home with her.

Girls do leak through, I’m not sure why you’d say that’s not how menstruation works.
Maybe I have misunderstood you.

3 from each class!? Wow, that would be carnage at my secondary school. We have one emergency pass.

Teachers are very much in a catch-22.

Two recent scenarios.

One class (all Y11) almost all students arrive late to lesson already (not through fault of anyone else; they are frequent dawdlers who will visit friends/ chat in front of my room and ignore invitations to come in) and some immediately ask to go to the toilet. Not only are they late, but they also just had lunch (an hour, so plenty of time).

I point this out and get met with "Lunch is for relaxing". Students go anyway and are now truanting according to my school's policy.

One Y8 class, second lesson after break, so many will not have had a chance to go to the toilet. Still, a class of 32 students.

10 students ask to go to the toilet on arrival to the lesson. Of those, 5 are told sure as they arrive with plenty of time to spare (we have changeover time). The other 5 arrive just before they would be marked in as late, get told no with a look to the time. By now, some of the class have finished their starter task and are waiting for the lesson to begin properly and by school policy I have to begin the lesson, take a register, deal with missing equipment, phone medical support for one student who'd injured themselves in another lesson.

School policy says we are not allowed to let students without a toilet pass go in lesson time and senior leaders patrol the hallways, giving us grief if we go against said policy. Rightly so, many students truant after asking to go to the toilet and too many are roaming hallways.

Several students ask to go again, I tell them not right now. After 45minutes, one student looks like they're about to be sick, so I let them go. Cue protests from the other 4 who were told no. I explain why that student and no one else at the time. Two students walk out and are now truanting, nothing to do with toilets. Another walks saying "I need a piss", but comes back after a while. The others remain in the lesson, fine with having been told no (and are allowed to leave slightly early to go relieve themselves).

SLT are unhappy kids are truanting, kids are unhappy because I can't let 1/3 of the class go to the toilet, I am unhappy because I have to deal with the fallout.

@ThrallsWife sympathy. 💐