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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

DS 14 and violent porn

206 replies

Hairsterical · 12/05/2023 13:18

Real or set up kidnaps of teen girls getting gang raped, "slave" auctions, close ups of butthole plugs in use - these are among the images my young teen accessed recently, now unfortunately burned into both of our brains.

I believe he only recently started to be interested in sex/masturbating, and I was not surprised when I saw some very slightly racy content a few weeks earlier in his YouTube history. Now, still at the start of his whole sexual journey, he is being stimulated by harmful images that could set his baseline.

DS has been under the spell of influencers and appears to have developed a misogynistic view of the world that involves women rightfully belonging to men and violence against women being normal and correct. Through YouTube videos, Twitter memes and the like, he seems to have followed this thinking straight down the path to violent porn.

We are on a course of action to counter these views and frankly step the f up on our parenting, which was a bit lackadaisical on this and some other areas, primarily making sure our family values are instilled into him - such as treating each and every human being on this earth with respect. I think we assumed DS shared our values but of course teens are testing boundaries and looking for their own identities, and I think DS is currently attracted to extreme views.

I'm looking for thoughts and advice on how to deal with this. Every podcast or report on this topic seems to find that a vast amount of porn is violent --- so why on earth is this normalised and seemingly accepted - boys will be boys.

DS's school supposedly has been tackling these very issues around influencers and misogyny and consent. Yet my impression is that some boys are just learning not to express their real opinions because they know what they are "supposed" to think. Should I notify the school of my concerns and my son's recent behaviour perhaps?

We had some controls on one of his devices but another was free and clear to bring anything into our home. We have clamped down on that, but before this DS claimed to be the only one of his friends with any time limits or controls. When I looked on threads here, it seemed indeed many parents had zero controls on their 14 and 15 year olds. So do you know what your teen is looking at?

IMO interest in sex and images is 100% normal but society seems to be moving toward sex and violence toward women being part and parcel. I despair.

OP posts:
Sugargliderwombat · 12/05/2023 20:28

Oops pressed send too soon.

If he wasn't aroused then have an open conversation around why he thinks this is OK. Then you know what to tackle. I don't think a sweeping ban and no further investigation will help here.

MummyJasmin · 12/05/2023 20:28

Squidlydoo · 12/05/2023 20:21

As someone who works with teenagers and has spotted many a teenage boy trying to Google Andrew Tate in my lessons, I am following this thread with interest. The exposure of teens to misogynistic and abusive imagery is rife amongst teenage boys and girls through phones and social media

I saw a really good informative video about the amount of non-consensual, abusive sex shown on TikTok so it doesn’t have to be PornHub. TikTok is definitely not all dancing videos!! It showed the prevalence of videos about choking and domination within the teen community so I am not surprised about the comments on this thread at all.

the other thing that’s frightening is nowadays a lot of filters/AI technology can be applied to videos now so the women in the video( who may be in 20s/30s) can be filtered to look like young teens.

scary times definitely and please do not assume your charming innocent child is not seeing this stuff as they almost certainly are

Even twitter is bad!

LivesinLondon2000 · 12/05/2023 20:29

@alwaysandforevernow
But she says in the first line of her post ‘real’ or ‘set-up’ gang-rapes so sounded like she wasn’t sure?
maybe she had another post that I missed but anyway Pornhub is awash with ‘set-up’ gang-rapes.

LivesinLondon2000 · 12/05/2023 20:35

@alwaysandforevernow
To be clear, I want to make the point that I don’t want ‘set-up’ gang-rapes to be available for our teens to view either. To me, it’s all just violence against women and I don’t like kids first experience of sex being violent.

It’s most likely her DS was just accessing what counts as ‘normal’ porn these days and that includes gang-rape. It’s pretty hard to tell what’s real and what’s set-up. Pornhub will argue that all the girls participating have consented and if it looks real, it’s just acting. Who can tell

Feefooo · 12/05/2023 20:38

I just asked my DH what would he do if he had a son who did that. He said slap him then take his devices away , my dh is protective over our DD though. I find it terrifying my DD might have to put with boys thinking it's normal eugh.

alwaysandforevernow · 12/05/2023 20:39

LivesinLondon2000 · 12/05/2023 20:29

@alwaysandforevernow
But she says in the first line of her post ‘real’ or ‘set-up’ gang-rapes so sounded like she wasn’t sure?
maybe she had another post that I missed but anyway Pornhub is awash with ‘set-up’ gang-rapes.

Exactly. She wasn't sure. And yet there was you being so sure.

You are naive at best and an abuse apologise at worst.

Feefooo · 12/05/2023 20:41

My 10 year old DD knew about Andrew Tate before I did, she heard about him at school from the boys. She thinks he's disgusting.

alwaysandforevernow · 12/05/2023 20:42

LivesinLondon2000 · 12/05/2023 20:35

@alwaysandforevernow
To be clear, I want to make the point that I don’t want ‘set-up’ gang-rapes to be available for our teens to view either. To me, it’s all just violence against women and I don’t like kids first experience of sex being violent.

It’s most likely her DS was just accessing what counts as ‘normal’ porn these days and that includes gang-rape. It’s pretty hard to tell what’s real and what’s set-up. Pornhub will argue that all the girls participating have consented and if it looks real, it’s just acting. Who can tell

Gosh, you're actually shilling here for pornhub as if it's a respectable business and not site that is known to have hosted videos of child sexual abuse.

Educate yourself then come back to the thread.

Tandora · 12/05/2023 20:44

How does your son treat women/ girls in real life? What are his attitudes about gender? Have your discussed these things with him - why/ why not? More context is needed here.,

Dibbydoos · 12/05/2023 20:48

What an honest post OP.

Well done for finding this, most parents are completely oblivious to what their teens are up to.

I personally think equality has gone backwards decades in general, but then what do we expect with right wing governments in many parts of the world these days - Why? God only knows...!

Anyway at 14 he's still at a young enough age to be guided, but maybe not by his parents although you're a great start, he needs someone he sees as more contemporary. An influencer or slightly older than him relative who is 😎

Good luck.

LivesinLondon2000 · 12/05/2023 20:49

@alwaysandforevernow
Yes I don’t doubt that I am naive. I don’t look at Porn myself. And I would personally be in favour of banning violent porn completely but I get that we live in a free society and others want to watch it. Though I find it hard to believe that any women want to subject themselves to gang-rapes no matter what the porn industry says.
I’m confused about what you mean by an abuse apologiser though?

Regulus · 12/05/2023 20:49

All those saying parental controls are deluded.

It's three fold.
Firstly the access through friends phones that don't have controls.
Secondly the amount of child who have better technological knowledge than their parents so can easily get around controls, but the worst is the third issue
So many well known sites have content that should be blocked by parent controls but that bypasses the blocker. Twitter was the worst for this although has slightly improved recently, but lots of other social media does the same.

Those parents congratulating themselves that their children, male and female, haven't seen extreme porn are mainly delusional. For so many it is not lack of parenting or lack of interest in their child, it is our collective failure to regulate the internet. Extreme content shouldn't be the default content, our government has chosen not to add restrictions.

Several times a week I am in meetings with parents, the vast majority who are horrified and thought they had done everything possible to prevent it. And the kids (male and female) are not 'vile' they are teenagers, bombarded with abuse at a time where they are trying to understand what it means to grow up.

LivesinLondon2000 · 12/05/2023 20:53

@alwaysandforevernow
i think I’ve not explained myself well. I don’t think Pornhub is a respectable business at all. I would ban it if I could.
The only point I was trying to make is that millions of people are watching it - they can’t all be vile - it’s the porn industry that’s vile!

Regulus · 12/05/2023 20:55

Feefooo · 12/05/2023 20:38

I just asked my DH what would he do if he had a son who did that. He said slap him then take his devices away , my dh is protective over our DD though. I find it terrifying my DD might have to put with boys thinking it's normal eugh.

So he would assault him? What exactly would that teach him?

I am not an apologist, but we need to address what is happening to our teens and how to address it.

The most successful response that I've witnessed is showing the effects of non consent.

alwaysandforevernow · 12/05/2023 21:02

LivesinLondon2000 · 12/05/2023 20:53

@alwaysandforevernow
i think I’ve not explained myself well. I don’t think Pornhub is a respectable business at all. I would ban it if I could.
The only point I was trying to make is that millions of people are watching it - they can’t all be vile - it’s the porn industry that’s vile!

No, that's not the only point that you were trying to make.

You claimed that children weren't really being raped in online porn. You claimed that the people seen in these images are "not actually underage - just pretending to be".

in this post, here:

LivesinLondon2000 · Today 19:39

@Saniflo
they’re not actually underage - just pretending to be.
i don’t agree with it but it doesn’t seem to be illegal

Comby · 12/05/2023 21:02

Why would boys take it seriously when their fathers are doing the same?

mauvish · 12/05/2023 21:07

Please speak to a professional in this area. I am sure they deal with this kind of stuff daily!

Again, I ask -- which professional would you approach? Because I'm damn sure that your GP couldn't do much and CAMHS is already overwhelmed. So where would you go?

Jijithecat · 12/05/2023 21:26

mauvish · 12/05/2023 21:07

Please speak to a professional in this area. I am sure they deal with this kind of stuff daily!

Again, I ask -- which professional would you approach? Because I'm damn sure that your GP couldn't do much and CAMHS is already overwhelmed. So where would you go?

The Lucy Faithfull Foundation

Hairsterical · 12/05/2023 21:36

Thanks again to those with kind words, support and useful tips. I really appreciate it.

To address a couple questions here: This is still fresh in our family and we couldn't solve it in one night. I've been thinking about how best for me/ and or DH to probe him on why he was looking at that particular vein of imagery. I have started giving a few monologues about some of the underlying issues such as how sexual violence is about violence and control not sex. That is essentially a made up version of sex promoted by people trying to make money off of young men. About what sex actually is, including consent and mutual enthusiasm. About the false sense of strength a bad/weak person could have about controlling someone or hurting someone - how it's like kicking a dog, false power. About sex trafficking and women being forced to do things, and how no one wants to be kidnapped or assaulted, how that would be among the most terrifying experiences for any human.

We don't know if he fell into a hole that one night, it appeared that way from the history AFAIK (DH had to take over the search/fact finding on his computer, I saw enough, and that's what he said, going back 3 months I think) The awful content was only the day before I looked. I'm not trying to minimise this -- the pattern is just unclear right now. What I saw when I clicked were stills, not video. I remember seeing pornhub in the mix but think what I clicked on might have been something else. The search words, that may or may not have been constructed by him, I'd have to analyse further, involved teen and kidnap. I saw a girl and two men. It was just distressing to click on this stuff. I don't know what the slave auction links would have produced and if again those were words he clicked or or crafted.

I haven't ever been on pornhub so really don't know how niche it was. The words seemed really specific in the history, like a nationality and hair colour that seemed strange for him to be focusing on. The kidnap part is what really floored me - that is just a euphemism for rape clearly.

He goes to a mixed school full of privileged children. He has never had close female friends, although I think he had a crush on a friend last year who chose another in their group. At primary the boys and girls socialized separately for the most part but they were all pals and the school had a strong ethos of kindness and respect. I never pressed him on his interest in girls (or boys), because he didn't seem bothered and there seemed to be plenty of time. I 100% agree with those saying the conversations on porn, etc. need to start early and had been pressing DH repeatedly in recent weeks/months/years about having a word. DH is very old school unfortunately and squeamish and was himself raised by wolves essentially (joke, but one parent was hands off and the other dead). As others say - some parents think job done once they're off to secondary, and we fell into that trap a bit. (And maybe thinking the school had it sorted to teach them all this.) I also assumed we had controls at the router. That was a f up.

DS was raised to question the depiction of gender roles and I never miss a chance to comment or call it out when I see something that plays into traditional tropes around women. In our own home he has witnessed my discontent with traditional gender roles, and there has been a mini culture war running between me and DH for years. I am a vocal feminist who was raised to excel in a career (and I did). I actually think Tate and the likes give boys an "easier" explanation for how men and women should interact than the actual, complicated reality.

OP posts:
Frogger8395 · 12/05/2023 21:39

You've been really irresponsible by allowing him unfiltered internet access.

girlfriend44 · 12/05/2023 21:41

How awful, gang rape. Would he like that to happen to his mum, sister, daughter whatever.

Squidlydoo · 12/05/2023 21:53

Thank you OP for being so open on this forum. You have drawn attention to a real issue that by no means affects only a minority of young people.

The fortunate outcome of this is you are now able to have those important conversations with your DS. So many kids are not as lucky to receive that family intervention and “reality check”. Young brains are so impressionable and there is a reason mental health is so poor amongst young people. You now have an opportunity to really open up dialogue with your child and your DH has an important role to play in this moving forward.

I know it is not easy to open yourself up to criticism on this site, please remember this can and will happen to all types of families. Please do not feel that you have to defend yourself and your family!

waterrat · 12/05/2023 21:56

Anyone saying this boy is vile is naive. Staggeringly naive

The porn the OP describes is absolutely standard fare. Go onto pornhhb and have a look.if you cant face it then you are not looking at what your teen is looking at.

Hairsterical · 12/05/2023 22:06

Someone mentioned a story this week in the Times so I looked it up. I hope I'm not breaking any copyright rules here but anyone interested in this topic should read this:

I'm watching what the kids are watching: porn. Most of it is disturbing
10 May 2023
The Times

As a new report points to the impact of violent pornography on British children, Helen Rumbelow downloads the most popular content for a day's viewing
Just before my day of watching porn a male friend said, "Wow, you get the best jobs." I wasn't actually sure what to expect. I assumed it would involve becoming at first titillated by, then desensitised to, the endless repetition of poles and holes; the glossy boobs and bums hypnotically rising and falling before my eyes, something like the visual eroticism of Gregg Wallace inspecting an iced bun factory. At first fun and then cloying.
Naughty, but nice.
Instead, when my time was up, marked by my teenagers getting home teenagers who are now way past 11, the average age of first exposure to video porn in the UK I found myself longing for desensitisation. I felt like I had witnessed sexual assaults and torture. For days, I couldn't get the pain these women experienced out of my head.
It wasn't like watching a horror film, when you know they use fake blood and phoney knives. The strangulation, gagging, binding and slapping, the glassy dead eyes of the teenage girl set upon with extreme force, was real. Real violence, humiliation and punishment. It didn't help my brain that the women were being paid perhaps to suck it up. It didn't help my brain to know the suffering was for such a good cause: male pleasure. I felt contaminated by sadism.
The influence of porn is now profound. This week the children's commissioner used statutory powers to analyse more than 500 case files of sexual abuse between under-18s provided by police. In 50 per cent of cases the interview transcripts referred to acts of sexual violence specific to pornography such as strangulation and slapping.
Some teenagers who carried out the abuse referred to their porn exposure as excessive, one saying, "I was really badly addicted to it at one point." An earlier study by the NSPCC found that one in ten schoolchildren aged 12 to 13 were worried they were already addicted to porn.
In 2016 the Journal of Interpersonal Violence published findings of a survey of almost 5,000 boys aged 14 to 17, which found an association: the more boys watched porn and the more they were sexually coercive, the more likely they were to send explicit images and the less respect they had for girls.
Yet for all this talk of the side-effects of porn, we don't discuss the porn itself. This is unique. Usually when there is a moral panic about a liberal frontier, say, rock music, all sides could confidently argue from evidence. But people either don't want to watch porn, or watch it and don't want to admit it.
The public debate on the Online Safety Bill, a pioneering piece of legislation making its way through the House of Lords, is therefore spectacularly ill-informed. Hidden by shame, porn gets a free pass. I recently explored the social media world of teenagers like my children for another article, but I was missing the bare-naked elephant in the room.
At 9am on a fresh Monday morning after the scrabbling to get the kids to school, I put on a wash of football kit and sat down with a cup of tea to watch Pornhub. Full disclosure: this wasn't even the first time I have investigated porn for The Times.
In May 1999, 24 years ago, I was a young reporter in the newsroom with a scoop. It was the battle between the censors at the British Board of Film Classification, who wanted to maintain the ban on sexual penetration, or "hardcore", on screen, and an obscure Home Office committee who overruled them. The porn video was called Makin' Whoopee! and it subsequently went missing from my desk; I assume someone was interested in the legal position.
The liberalising Home Office committee included Biddy Baxter, the former Blue Peter editor. When we interviewed Baxter about her decision she was idealistic. In Makin' Whoopee!, Baxter said, "everything was totally consensual and did not involve violence against women" (true).
At a subsequent appeal I heard a barrister invoke the spirit of the 1960 censorship trial for Lady Chatterley's Lover. Looking back, the Makin' Whoopee! case was seminal. Not that the ruling mattered much: soon video cassettes and censorship would be made irrelevant by the internet.
It was more a symbol of a new era of "sex-positive post-feminism", where we uptight Brits would become sophisticated Europeans. As a young woman in the 1990s I was living this Blairite and "lads' mags" cultural change. I found the porn-denouncing views of writers such as Andrea Dworkin un-fun. I was keen to be open-minded, not a prude.
Now, clicking straight onto Pornhub the website is free in every sense and didn't offer even a cursory check of my age I discovered what we started in 1999. Every video is "hardcore" now, of course, but Baxter's hopes about consent and violence seem to be "wrecked", to use a common porn euphemism for abusive sex.
Pornhub was the fourth most visited website in the United States in March 2023, according to Semrush traffic analytics, and the UK is its fifth largest market. It still gets billions of views, despite the fallout it experienced from The New York Times investigation in 2020 that concluded that of the more than six million new videos posted on the site each year, "many depict child abuse and non-consensual violence". I chose Pornhub as I could safely assume it has the most brand recognition for teens.
As a snapshot I picked the "most popular in the UK" page for that morning. There were 32 thumbnails of videos to click on. I scanned each one: mostly just a few minutes long and most involved people speaking in eastern European languages.
Twelve of the 32 showed men being physically abusive to women. This ranged from hair-pulling, slapping or holding her arms behind her back to a harder range of violence. Four of them included scenes of something I found out was called "facial abuse", in which a woman's airway is blocked by a penis, what looked to me like a porn version of waterboarding torture.
In one a woman is immobilised and bound by four straps and a collar tightened around her neck. She ends up looking like a dead body found in the boot of a car. In another a young girl, dressed to look even younger in a pair of bunny ears and pastel socks, is held down by an enormous man pushing his hand on her neck while she is penetrated.
The sounds that came from my computer were those you might expect from a battle hospital: cries of pain, suction and "no, no, no". I won't yet tell you the worst video I saw as you may want to stop reading now. I started to have to take breaks to go outside and look at the sky and remember kindness.
The next largest category was that of "pseudo incest", with 11 videos. These depict sex between step-siblings or step-parents and adult stepchildren. Bizarrely, I found these videos a moment of calm because they were rarely violent; the violence of the taboo seemed to suffice.
Also less physically violent were videos that relished power imbalances over women. For example, in one a security guard insists a crying teenage shoplifter has sex in return for being set free. Later I found elsewhere on the site a series of videos on the theme of "Fake Taxi Driver", in which women are in the back of black cabs that are driven to remote country lanes for sex. Another from the same source were "Fake Cops", in which vulnerable women are sexually exploited. In the light of high-profile court cases in the UK involving taxi drivers or police these were both disturbing. On the site, "teen" was one of the most popular categories. The site is keen to label teen as "18+", which is not exactly how "teen" is commonly understood.
In none of the 32 videos were men shown to lack power. At the end of nearly every video women's faces were coated with semen. Where was the Baxter-approved consensual non-violent sex with no family members and no teens? Out of my sample, women were makin' whoopee in only three.
Few academics have attempted to codify the videos on porn sites. In 2019 Eran Shor, a sociology professor at McGill University in Canada, found that 43 per cent of a sample of Pornhub videos included visible aggression, with 15 per cent of videos featuring non-consensual aggression. "Teen" female performers were more likely to feature in videos with titles suggesting aggression, and were more likely to act as if they liked a male performer being physically aggressive towards them.
In 2021 a study led by Fiona Vera-Gray, then assistant professor in the law department of Durham University, used web crawlers to analyse the titles on the most popular three porn websites in the UK, including Pornhub. "Despite heated public and scholarly debate, there is surprisingly little research on the content of mainstream online pornography," she and her researchers wrote in the British Journal of Criminology.
Vera-Gray's data set of more than 150,000 titles made it the largest study of online porn to date. "Sexual violence in pornography is mainstream," the study concluded. The word "teen" was the most frequently occuring word in the whole data set, and was even more common in the videos coded as describing sexual violence. " 'Teen' is thus a more common way to describe pornography than any description of a sex act or body part." They found four main types of sexual violence: most common was sex portrayed between family members; the second was physical aggression; the third were titles advertising non-consensual creation of porn, such as "revenge porn", "upskirting" and "spy-cams" (it is not known if these videos are in reality the result of this illegal activity). The last implied coercion and exploitation, with title keywords like "very young" and "schoolgirl".
As the study points out, it is "more common for descriptions of even the most serious sexual offences to be positioned as ordinary or even humorous". Jokey exclamation marks are a hallmark of the titles for some of the most upsetting material.
Sometimes the women seem to like their bodies being punished, sometimes they seem in agony. The man always likes it when the woman is being punished. I cannot imagine how confusing this would be as a teen's first encounter with sex.
I very much wanted to talk to Vera-Gray, to process what I had seen. She agreed that once you detached the videos from their primary purpose of arousal, the material was "confronting".
"A lot is about women's humiliation and degradation," she said. The videos shown to first-time porn users "could be significantly implicated in muddying the waters between consensual and sexual violence".
"I think that every parent, teacher and policymaker needs to actually go and see what is on these sites themselves," Vera-Gray said. This should be done in a "cold light of day" way, she said, that takes sexual arousal out of the debate.
I kept wondering: if this was another medium, say a wildly popular theatre show among teenage girls and women, that involved young men being humiliated, bound, in pain and sprayed with female body fluids, would we be having more of a conversation? I reread my old copy of Dworkin's analysis of porn as misogyny, written in 1989 "the joy of pain, the pleasure of abuse". Andrea, I thought, you predicted it all.
In one video I saw on the Pornhub site the man experiments with suffocation, the woman's throat is restricted by a penis, and at that point the man, for a few seconds, closes her nostrils with his fingers too.
But the video I found most distressing was one of my original 32. It is described as an encounter with a "teen babysitter", in which the man keeps hurting the girl in different ways. There is facial abuse in which she retches, near-vomiting. Some slapping and hard hair-pulling. Her saying "please", which the man seemed to take as a sexual overture, I interpreted as her begging for her life. Before I went outside for another look at the sky, I scrolled the comments. "Wow," said the first one. "So passionate."

OP posts:
Regulus · 12/05/2023 22:10

Frogger8395 · 12/05/2023 21:39

You've been really irresponsible by allowing him unfiltered internet access.

Have you read any of the posts?