Page 32 | To ask if you have a problem with the burkini?

Mvslimah · 2023-05-07T19:28:59+00:00

Honest answers please would you give a woman (maybe Muslim maybe Jewish) a wide berth if you saw them wearing a burkini or modest (Ie fully covered) swimsuit at a pool? if you see a woman wearing one do you give it a second thought or is it just a meh, who cares? tia

Original poster

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 22:35

The array of stereotypes of the Muslim woman on this thread are quite sad to see, what’s even sadder is I think there are quite a few public Muslims and myself here who have said we chose to dress a certain way or do certain things, yet no one bloody believes us. It really is quite infuriating

OP posts:

Nicecow · 10/05/2023 02:00

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 22:35

The array of stereotypes of the Muslim woman on this thread are quite sad to see, what’s even sadder is I think there are quite a few public Muslims and myself here who have said we chose to dress a certain way or do certain things, yet no one bloody believes us. It really is quite infuriating

I think it's because people think even if you do choose something, you haven't really chosen it because you've been brainwashed. That's also why I think it's ironic because Western women are actually exactly the same. We mostly dress for men too, even though we say we don't. We say we dress provocatively because it's "empowering", generally speaking of course ... but really if it's not for men, who's is it for 🤷‍♀️

dig135 · 10/05/2023 06:08

We're all influenced by our individual experiences. As I've mentioned, my Muslim brother explained the main reason for the covering up so as not to tempt men.

Whether that's the majority view or not, it makes me uncomfortable, particularly when I see women fully covered while men run round in swimming shorts. And more so when I see young girls covered up.

My parents are devout Christians and I applaud the effort of the church to modernise and evolve (admittedly with varying degrees of success). I think religion should move with the times if it wants to survive. I also have a number of Muslim friends who dress like me so have a different interpretation.

There's plenty of things I do or believe that you probably wouldn't like or understand. That's fine too.

margarine17 · 10/05/2023 06:29

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 20:36

But you don’t know me, so you don’t really know what I do pushback on, but the thing is I quite like Islam the way it is, I don’t necessarily like Muslims and what Muslims do, there is a distinction to be made there.

i have no once said that women are responsible for the actions of men, that is your inference. I’ve replied as to why Muslim women do such and such and have given a broad factual answer. Now according to some I probably don’t dress modestly enough, but I’d challenge if anyone pulled me up on that.

why does the religion need to be adapted when it has been this way for 1400 years? Tbe religion itself isn’t the problem, it is how it has been interpreted and slowly twisted to suit the needs to specific governments to legitimise their regime cough saudi cough FYI changing the religion or what’s termed a bid’ah is a huge sin. Things of course need to be viewed In their historical context, and some scholarly issues need to be reclassified as to where they sit in terms of the sharia, but that’s not Islam as such, that’s an interpretation of it (usually a man’s interpretation which is why some very patriarchal things have seeped in). You may or may not who knows be interested to know that under the Ottoman Empire, homosexuality across the Muslim world that was ruled by the ottomans was decriminalised, non Muslims could visit Mecca and medina and there was a real drive toward pluralism. The amount of hudud or hadd punishments enacted by Muslims judges across the entire Muslim world, prior to the formation of Saudi, was so small you could count it on one hand, the Muslim caliphates were the original welfare states that guaranteed non Muslims, especially Christians and Jews, equal rights, freedom of religion and protection the likes that other societies of the time hadn’t seen. One of the first universities in the world was founded by a Muslim woman… these are all things that are part of the faith that have got eroded with the foundation of Saudi Arabia and their aggressive promulgation of their version of Islam.

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Sadly, quite a heck of a long time ago. Which is all I have been trying to say , with my now deleted posts. Blaming the massive problems with a religion on something that happened 100 years ago or 500 years ago does make it seem that things haven't moved on. Or got worse. Apologies if you found my deleted posts offensive. I don't believe they were, but you may have.

margarine17 · 10/05/2023 06:31

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 07:28

simply put, I wasn’t. I lived in Saudi but not as a Saudi because I’m not, expats live in very expat communities and I went to an international school.

as you don’t know my husband or his family it makes me giggle that you think he was well raised… like most families they’ve got their issues, some definitely would not evoke sentiments of being well raised. They don’t like the face veil because it’s not their culture.

ive worn it myself, not for pure motivations on believing it to be the correct or preferred way for a Muslim woman to dress but actually that I was going somewhere and I didn’t want to be recognised and or approached

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Approached and recognised by who? What does this even mean? SO basically you were using your religion to do the equivalent of putting a paper bag over your head so you weren't mobbed by .....

PauseTheRain · 10/05/2023 06:35

It would be a meh, who cares from me OP.

margarine17 · 10/05/2023 06:39

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 15:57

I think there is a larger point that those who feel uncomfortable should or could interrogate why it makes them feel such a way, is it due to this poor Muslim woman trope that we’ve seen time and time again on the thread, because that’s quite problematic

like wise if I articulated that it makes me feel very uncomfortable to see an overweight person in swimwear (it doesn’t and I’m just using this as an example) I should reflect on why that is and what sort of prejudices I have that are making me feel that way

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Deep down, I think you know that in many countries the "poor Muslim woman " is not a trope. I'm a bit surprised you are so dismissive of it. Don't have any relatives or friends or social media contacts in Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, Chad, Pakistan and on and on.
Or just don't care anyway?
Interesting.
So you are, I'm all good I'm living in the UK. Happy to criticise France but don't say anything against my religion.
Hmmm

Original poster

Mvslimah · 10/05/2023 07:34

@margarine17 i didn’t report your posts someone else obviously did

no one is saying one single isolated incident is responsible for the more conservative turn Islam has taken over the last century rather it is a domino effect, colonialism, formation of Saudi, Sykes picot, Saudi sponsoring lots of mosques internationally, arming the taliban, arming rebels in Syria etc

yes, ive worn it to fly incognito, akin to big sunnies and a hat, didn’t want to chat to anyone that day, family or friends. Plus i was curious to see what it’s like.

im not dismissing those women’s struggles but it’s just not relevant in this conversation because they are developing countries which are hardly known for their human rights, one can same the same about Honduras or the CAR but ultimately it’s really important western women (myself included) don’t speak on behalf of those women.

yeah I’m not going to criticise Islam itself because we believe that’s from god so something from god can’t be bad, but I will criticise Muslims for how they interpret certain things and for what they do, I won’t necessarily have that conversation with you specifically because you already seem to have quite an agenda against Muslims so I’m not going to fan your fires of hatred

OP posts:

dig135 · 10/05/2023 07:58

im not dismissing those women’s struggles but it’s just not relevant in this conversation because they are developing countries which are hardly known for their human rights

It's a tough one as there's still some issues in the U.K. My SIL came to the U.K. from Pakistan when she was 13. Her passport was doctored before she came to show her as 18.

She had her first child in the U.K. at 13, and had three children by 16 (through her first marriage, not my brother). She is the hardest-working person I know but can't read or write and speaks little English (after 40 years living here) which limits her employment opportunities. I don't feel that her human rights have been respected sufficiently.

PaintingTheSky · 10/05/2023 08:09

I don't mind them as I don't care how someone prefers to dress, whether it's for religious or their own reasons.
The only thing I wonder about when I see a woman in one, is whether it restricts her movements a little while she is swimming.

margarine17 · 10/05/2023 08:14

Mvslimah · 10/05/2023 07:34

@margarine17 i didn’t report your posts someone else obviously did

no one is saying one single isolated incident is responsible for the more conservative turn Islam has taken over the last century rather it is a domino effect, colonialism, formation of Saudi, Sykes picot, Saudi sponsoring lots of mosques internationally, arming the taliban, arming rebels in Syria etc

yes, ive worn it to fly incognito, akin to big sunnies and a hat, didn’t want to chat to anyone that day, family or friends. Plus i was curious to see what it’s like.

im not dismissing those women’s struggles but it’s just not relevant in this conversation because they are developing countries which are hardly known for their human rights, one can same the same about Honduras or the CAR but ultimately it’s really important western women (myself included) don’t speak on behalf of those women.

yeah I’m not going to criticise Islam itself because we believe that’s from god so something from god can’t be bad, but I will criticise Muslims for how they interpret certain things and for what they do, I won’t necessarily have that conversation with you specifically because you already seem to have quite an agenda against Muslims so I’m not going to fan your fires of hatred

All good.
I don't have hatred. I have worry.
I'm happy you are happy as a Muslim in a Western country but unable to speak for other Muslim women for some reason.
Let's just leave it there - enjoy your burkini ( was developed in Australia where I live btw ) and crack on.

RatesWillRise · 10/05/2023 08:27

I was brought up a Muslim, but I don’t really do all the things a proper Muslim should do. I am married to an English non-Muslim man, I had sex before marriage, I wear a miniskirt, I eat non-halal food, etc. My parents accept this.

Once every few years, my mum begs me to go to the mosque with her for Eid. On the occasions I go, I wear a long, baggy dress and hijab, so nothing is exposing my face and I have no make up.

I cannot believe I’m saying this, but I actually feel very ‘liberated’ in a way dressing like that. I had not realised how aware I am of how I look day to day, even subconsciously. It was really nice, looking the same as most of the women there, chatting to people and knowing that my appearance had zero importance. Our society does place a lot of value on looks, especially for women.

Obviously the next day I was back to dressing fashionably and in a non-Islamic way. But I do believe many women dress that way because they want to. I actually can see the appeal.

ExpatinQatar · 10/05/2023 09:23

RatesWillRise · 10/05/2023 08:27

I was brought up a Muslim, but I don’t really do all the things a proper Muslim should do. I am married to an English non-Muslim man, I had sex before marriage, I wear a miniskirt, I eat non-halal food, etc. My parents accept this.

Once every few years, my mum begs me to go to the mosque with her for Eid. On the occasions I go, I wear a long, baggy dress and hijab, so nothing is exposing my face and I have no make up.

I cannot believe I’m saying this, but I actually feel very ‘liberated’ in a way dressing like that. I had not realised how aware I am of how I look day to day, even subconsciously. It was really nice, looking the same as most of the women there, chatting to people and knowing that my appearance had zero importance. Our society does place a lot of value on looks, especially for women.

Obviously the next day I was back to dressing fashionably and in a non-Islamic way. But I do believe many women dress that way because they want to. I actually can see the appeal.

I never wear make-up and am not into fashion at all. Has nothing to do with religion. There are many hijabi women in full faces of make-up with elaborately bejeweled abayas and hijabs. I have not seen any difference in Muslim or non Muslim women in terms of being into beauty and fashion and accessorizing. Many Muslim women have tons of cosmetic procedures and surgeries all while wearing their hijab or niqab. I am on Qatar and most Muslim women here are very into beauty and fashion, more so than at home. It is a massive industry in many Muslim countries.

SnackSizeRaisin · 10/05/2023 10:16

Oppression is everywhere. I know a lot of women who feel they can't swim unless they have shaved legs and armpits. Is that a genuine free choice? Also women who wont leave the house without make up, or who straighten their hair every day. On the other hand it is not permitted for a woman to be topless or for either sex to swim naked. High heels is another one. The idea that you can't wear the same outfit to two weddings. Girls wearing skirts but boys don't. These "rules" of dress are a normal part of human society. I don't see Muslim dress as fundamentally any different. It's just that we are used to our own standards so don't think them odd. Muslim dress has come from a different cultural background. Humans are programmed to notice differences and side with their own tribe. Reactions against unusual clothing are part of that and are a primitive response which educated people should be able to recognise. On the other hand Muslim women in the UK dress in islamic dress partly to identify with their own tribe so can't really expect people not to notice. I question what modest really means in this context.

Modest is context dependent and as well as meaning covering up of skin is also means not standing out. In the UK non Muslim context a navy blue one piece swimsuit would be considered modest (but exposing that amount of leg in a pub would be immodest)

On a purely technical point OP as a half British person you should know that the UK is not a secular country.

Bagsundermyeyestoday · 10/05/2023 11:26

RatesWillRise · 10/05/2023 08:27

I was brought up a Muslim, but I don’t really do all the things a proper Muslim should do. I am married to an English non-Muslim man, I had sex before marriage, I wear a miniskirt, I eat non-halal food, etc. My parents accept this.

Once every few years, my mum begs me to go to the mosque with her for Eid. On the occasions I go, I wear a long, baggy dress and hijab, so nothing is exposing my face and I have no make up.

I cannot believe I’m saying this, but I actually feel very ‘liberated’ in a way dressing like that. I had not realised how aware I am of how I look day to day, even subconsciously. It was really nice, looking the same as most of the women there, chatting to people and knowing that my appearance had zero importance. Our society does place a lot of value on looks, especially for women.

Obviously the next day I was back to dressing fashionably and in a non-Islamic way. But I do believe many women dress that way because they want to. I actually can see the appeal.

This is so interesting, I dud wonder about that and can also see the appeal

SoreThroatAgain · 10/05/2023 12:18

ExpatinQatar · 10/05/2023 09:23

I never wear make-up and am not into fashion at all. Has nothing to do with religion. There are many hijabi women in full faces of make-up with elaborately bejeweled abayas and hijabs. I have not seen any difference in Muslim or non Muslim women in terms of being into beauty and fashion and accessorizing. Many Muslim women have tons of cosmetic procedures and surgeries all while wearing their hijab or niqab. I am on Qatar and most Muslim women here are very into beauty and fashion, more so than at home. It is a massive industry in many Muslim countries.

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That is something I find really quite bewildering. To cover your hair up in order to be ‘modest’, but then having loads of make up and perfectly groomed eyebrows etc when out in public. I would love to understand the thinking behind that.

NatashaDancing · 10/05/2023 12:20

SnackSizeRaisin · 10/05/2023 10:16

Oppression is everywhere. I know a lot of women who feel they can't swim unless they have shaved legs and armpits. Is that a genuine free choice? Also women who wont leave the house without make up, or who straighten their hair every day. On the other hand it is not permitted for a woman to be topless or for either sex to swim naked. High heels is another one. The idea that you can't wear the same outfit to two weddings. Girls wearing skirts but boys don't. These "rules" of dress are a normal part of human society. I don't see Muslim dress as fundamentally any different. It's just that we are used to our own standards so don't think them odd. Muslim dress has come from a different cultural background. Humans are programmed to notice differences and side with their own tribe. Reactions against unusual clothing are part of that and are a primitive response which educated people should be able to recognise. On the other hand Muslim women in the UK dress in islamic dress partly to identify with their own tribe so can't really expect people not to notice. I question what modest really means in this context.

Modest is context dependent and as well as meaning covering up of skin is also means not standing out. In the UK non Muslim context a navy blue one piece swimsuit would be considered modest (but exposing that amount of leg in a pub would be immodest)

On a purely technical point OP as a half British person you should know that the UK is not a secular country.

Apart from going out naked none of your examples are mandated into criminal law. Plenty of women ignore most or or even all of these "oppressions" with no consequences at all.

The UK is a secular country and the OP is benefitting from that.

Original poster

Mvslimah · 10/05/2023 13:53

@margarine17 Of course I can’t speak for any women In Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, iran, Saudi etc, just like you can’t speak for any women In CAR or Honduras and we shouldn’t, when we hear about their experiences it should come from them, from their mouths or else we are also silencing them by superimposing our narrative onto theirs.

the women of Afghanistan have far greater concerns than clothes, in fact dare I say, a burkini for them would be down right groundbreaking.

my experience of choosing to wear ‘modest’ swimwear or modest clothes is worlds apart from a woman who has been denied an education, lives in a country with guardianship laws, and corporal punishment being forced to wear a burqa with physical repercussions if I don’t conform

OP posts:

Original poster

Mvslimah · 10/05/2023 13:55

SoreThroatAgain · 10/05/2023 12:18

That is something I find really quite bewildering. To cover your hair up in order to be ‘modest’, but then having loads of make up and perfectly groomed eyebrows etc when out in public. I would love to understand the thinking behind that.

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Well clothes have significance, women are deciding what modesty or what they Islamic dress codes mean to them and are interpreting them in their own way. You sound similar to that video posted upthread when the saudi man claimed women who wear makeup arnt hijabi

OP posts:

pointythings · 10/05/2023 15:16

The only problem I have with 'modest' dress requirements is that the freedom to adhere or not is illusory. That also applies to men, but the impact on women is disproportionate. Refuse to conform and you will be criticised, shunned, bullied, often from within your own family and community. That also applies to people who want to dress more modestly in an environment is not the norm. If you are in some Middle Eastern countries, you may be arrested, tortured and imprisoned, even killed for how you dress.

But that isn't an Islam problem. All faiths do it at their extremes. It's a control problem. As long as everyone acknowledges that and keeps working away until we live in a world where this controlling aspect no longer exists, we can all just do our thing.

SoreThroatAgain · 10/05/2023 15:20

Mvslimah · 10/05/2023 13:55

Well clothes have significance, women are deciding what modesty or what they Islamic dress codes mean to them and are interpreting them in their own way. You sound similar to that video posted upthread when the saudi man claimed women who wear makeup arnt hijabi

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Well I was genuinely hoping for clarification and education in a respectful way. I have never asked my devout Muslim cousins about this. And have supported you on this thread. But clearly you have judged me unpleasantly for asking so I will bow out.

SnackSizeRaisin · 10/05/2023 15:20

NatashaDancing · 10/05/2023 12:20

Apart from going out naked none of your examples are mandated into criminal law. Plenty of women ignore most or or even all of these "oppressions" with no consequences at all.

The UK is a secular country and the OP is benefitting from that.

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None of the Muslim dress codes are "mandated into criminal law" in this country either? (Or in most countries where Muslims live).

SnackSizeRaisin · 10/05/2023 15:26

NatashaDancing · 10/05/2023 12:20

Apart from going out naked none of your examples are mandated into criminal law. Plenty of women ignore most or or even all of these "oppressions" with no consequences at all.

The UK is a secular country and the OP is benefitting from that.

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The UK is a Christian country, our head of state is also the head of the church. We are tolerant of other religions and don't enforce religious laws so it's a technical point. The C of E is pretty laid back as religions go. But we are different to France in that sense.

Original poster

Mvslimah · 10/05/2023 15:34

SoreThroatAgain · 10/05/2023 15:20

Well I was genuinely hoping for clarification and education in a respectful way. I have never asked my devout Muslim cousins about this. And have supported you on this thread. But clearly you have judged me unpleasantly for asking so I will bow out.

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I appreciate your support and my point wasn’t an attack or even a criticism, it was a reminder even to myself actually, who often thinks the same, or sometimes finds myself judging a girl wearing a headscarf and ripped jeans, that actually we should take a step back and not become part of the wider discourse policing Muslim women’s clothing or branding hijabi or covered or modest women not hijabi modest or coveted enough

OP posts:

ExpatinQatar · 10/05/2023 15:36

SoreThroatAgain · 10/05/2023 12:18

That is something I find really quite bewildering. To cover your hair up in order to be ‘modest’, but then having loads of make up and perfectly groomed eyebrows etc when out in public. I would love to understand the thinking behind that.

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There is a lot of cherry picking of the Qur'an just like cherry picking of the Bible. I saw two Muslim women having a disagreement as one dressed very plain with no make-up but didn't wear any head covering and the other wear a hijab and abaya but had her face in full make-up and her clothes blinged out. They both thought the other wasn't doing the right thing.

The Qur'an 24:31 (translated) says: "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments"