To ask if you have a problem with the burkini?

[Mvslimah]

Honest answers please

would you give a woman (maybe Muslim maybe Jewish) a wide berth if you saw them wearing a burkini or modest (Ie fully covered) swimsuit at a pool?

if you see a woman wearing one do you give it a second thought or is it just a meh, who cares?

tia

Keep reporting islamophobic posts but @mnhq are declining to delete….

If it's a swimsuit burkini, I don't think anything of it. If it's going in the water fully clothed, I tend to keep an eye because sometimes it means an infrequent swimmer or someone who can struggle with heavy, wet fabric.

I've never been to a public swimming pool which didn't have and enforce this rule. Private/hotel pools don't have the same rule.

Well I’ve not been to a public pool so that’s why.. seems like it’s how the institutional french racism covertly discriminates against the Muslim and Jewish minorities

I think secularism is really just a stick to beat minorities with, since it doesn't seem to apply to Catholics.

If you are a good Catholic protesting against same sex marriage or the liberalisation of IVF laws or abortion, you are just exercising your right to free speech, not trying to make your religious beliefs form the basis of laws in a supposedly secular country, apparently.

Some slightly unsavoury anti french sentiment from the OP on this thread. Separation of state from religion by French institutions was for other historical reasons surely not a 21st cent anti Muslim conspiracy , but a legacy of French attitudes to the Catholic Church?

I think it's a fair comment actually.

Respect for the principle of laïcité is something that is only really demanded of religious minorities. There are many French people who will say France is a secular country when it suits them and also that France is a Catholic country when it suits them.

I AM FRENCH

but The french state is not a truly secular one. Religion is banned In schools but the bible is taught as a text, covered up swimwear is banned under the guise of hygiene, as pp said a Catholic would be exercising their civil liberties to protest abortion, the country is built on catholic values, i believe sarkozy even said so himself

Yeah I would say that even now, the Catholic religion has more influence over the laws of France, a supposedly secular country, than Anglican Christianity does over the laws of the UK, where it is the country's official religion and the head of the church is literally also the head of state.

Tbf anglican Protestantism is basically Catholicism with the king in the pope's place.
Said as someone who converted from Episcopalian (Anglican) to Catholic. They're ultimately the same basic values and Anglican was set up by the head of state anyway so that kind of says a lot.

Thanks both, I found your comments on France and church interesting.

Still cant articulate my though process. I have a stinking head cold a the moment. Its the fact that you do not seem to question the role of women in what is clearly a patriarchal structure. Your focus seem to be on women rather that holding men to account, who in most cases are the issue. Surely it is time to adapt the teaching to a more modern society. I would be asking the same question if you were part of any other other organised religion. This isn't about Islam rather religion in general, as a patriarchal structure. As a woman ( and before anyone asks, no I am not going to define it) I want my daughter to know her worth and have agency. Not sure if that makes sense.

Yeah except that our laws aren't made on the basis of Anglican Christianity.

I’d notice as it’s not the norm but I wouldn’t care.

I'd think fair play. I'd much rather see someone in a burkini having fun and enjoying themselves than sat miserable fully clothed on the beach.

I've been looking at swimwear marketed to Muslim women because I am incredibly hairy and genuinely don't want to faff with hair removal in order to swim.

Have also wondered what little kids in the middle east wear as I want something loose and long for my 18 month old that protects from the sun but is cool to wear, and there's bugger all like that here.

But you don’t know me, so you don’t really know what I do pushback on, but the thing is I quite like Islam the way it is, I don’t necessarily like Muslims and what Muslims do, there is a distinction to be made there.

i have no once said that women are responsible for the actions of men, that is your inference. I’ve replied as to why Muslim women do such and such and have given a broad factual answer. Now according to some I probably don’t dress modestly enough, but I’d challenge if anyone pulled me up on that.

why does the religion need to be adapted when it has been this way for 1400 years? Tbe religion itself isn’t the problem, it is how it has been interpreted and slowly twisted to suit the needs to specific governments to legitimise their regime cough saudi cough FYI changing the religion or what’s termed a bid’ah is a huge sin. Things of course need to be viewed In their historical context, and some scholarly issues need to be reclassified as to where they sit in terms of the sharia, but that’s not Islam as such, that’s an interpretation of it (usually a man’s interpretation which is why some very patriarchal things have seeped in). You may or may not who knows be interested to know that under the Ottoman Empire, homosexuality across the Muslim world that was ruled by the ottomans was decriminalised, non Muslims could visit Mecca and medina and there was a real drive toward pluralism. The amount of hudud or hadd punishments enacted by Muslims judges across the entire Muslim world, prior to the formation of Saudi, was so small you could count it on one hand, the Muslim caliphates were the original welfare states that guaranteed non Muslims, especially Christians and Jews, equal rights, freedom of religion and protection the likes that other societies of the time hadn’t seen. One of the first universities in the world was founded by a Muslim woman… these are all things that are part of the faith that have got eroded with the foundation of Saudi Arabia and their aggressive promulgation of their version of Islam.

They tend to wear clothes like kids here do but they just aren’t really out too much in the sun. But you can get abayas or thobes for little kids… where do you live?

Absolutely no problem with it, I think they look quite elegant and sophisticated.

Definitely don’t like seeing them being worn in saunas though (spent too long being educated by our continental cousins who strongly object to bacteria- holding textiles in saunas (their words, not mine)).

I have quietly wondered about trying just the head and face sections on their own - when I head down the naturist beach…

I'd be a little curious, but pleased that it meant a woman could swim.

I live in the UK.

I found this that ships here:
https://www.yallakids.co.uk/products/hawa-jalabeya
But didn't know if it would be odd for my non-Muslim dd to wear.
To be fair I am unreasonably scared of sunburn as I've never experienced it (olive skin) and I don't know what it'd take for DD to burn.

I agree with you OP. I was surprised when I visited Turkey (2009) to see how liberal it was and when I found out more about the Ottoman Empire which I'm sure not many people know about. Prior to that my views were largely shaped by media as I don't really know any Muslim people well. People have unfortunately always ruined religion for their own purposes, religion is a great way to ruin a good philosophy.

I also think we in the Western world are quick to judge without thinking how we too exhibit the same patriarchal behaviours, we just think we don't, but it's there in everything we do

Tbh I wouldn’t put mine in it because they might be hot, and small kids are more likely to overheat and might not be able to communicate and I don’t know the material and how light it is. But I dont see a problem with the outfit as itself as a non Muslim. I’d avoid the heat of the day and if they are in a pushchair get a sun shade and parasol, maybe a cool towel and pushchair fan

I'd expect any men with the women to be all covered up as well. Otherwise it seems hypocritical to expect women to wear all that fabric in a