Page 30 | To ask if you have a problem with the burkini?

Mvslimah · 2023-05-07T19:28:59+00:00

Honest answers please would you give a woman (maybe Muslim maybe Jewish) a wide berth if you saw them wearing a burkini or modest (Ie fully covered) swimsuit at a pool? if you see a woman wearing one do you give it a second thought or is it just a meh, who cares? tia

PollyThePixie · 09/05/2023 15:21

recyclemeagain · 09/05/2023 08:56

@PollyThePixie @SoreThroatAgain
I understand there's a lot of posts to read through but by leaping on mine perhaps you missed my multiple responses to similar comments.
I have stated repeatedly that I myself grew up in Saudi so I have personal experience that I'm referring to. And I have not stated that British values mean to exclusively wear revealing swimwear or anything like that. I've stated that British values are about acceptance and fairness, and pointed out the same does not apply when western women live in places like Saudi (again, in my lived experience which you can see I have briefly discussed with OP)
Hopefully you both simply rushed to respond to my first post and didn't just choose to dismiss me already clearing this up.
Have good days both of you.

Without giving too much away - I’ve lived in the region for more than 4 decades. It’s why I’m able to comment on your sweeping generalization.

MargotBamborough · 09/05/2023 15:30

phoenixrosehere · 09/05/2023 14:59

Covering up from head to toe, sadly, does not force anyone to value what you say and how you act rather than how you look.

Neither does wearing a bikini or any type of swimwear. People could simply mind their business about what people choose to wear on the beach and keep their comments in their head.

Burkinis are not just worn by Muslim women and other women on this thread have stated that they have either worn one or would like to because it covers their skin, some of the reasons having nothing to do with modesty or religion.

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Yes, I think people should mind their own business. But in practice they don't, which is why I was saying that I think the idea that if you cover your body people will focus on what you have to say rather than what you look like is sadly flawed.

TooBigForMyBoots · 09/05/2023 15:41

I really think those who feel strongly that a woman shouldn't wear certain garments are as bad as people who think they should.

I agree @CaptainMyCaptain. Other people's wardrobes are none of my business. Sorry those women were so rude OP. Unfortunately some folk are judgemental fuckers.

dig135 · 09/05/2023 15:42

People could simply mind their business about what people choose to wear on the beach and keep their comments in their head.

But the OP asked people to be honest about what they were thinking. Pretty much everyone has said they wouldn't say anything but the premise of the thread was to ask for opinions.

Just because some people have said it might make them feel slightly uncomfortable (and explained why in a polite way), it's a bit rich to tell them to keep their comments in their head when that was the very purpose of the thread,

By the same token, some people might feel uncomfortable if I'm lounging on the beach in a bikini (my kids included!). That's perfectly acceptable to me too.

Original poster

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 15:57

dig135 · 09/05/2023 15:42

People could simply mind their business about what people choose to wear on the beach and keep their comments in their head.

But the OP asked people to be honest about what they were thinking. Pretty much everyone has said they wouldn't say anything but the premise of the thread was to ask for opinions.

Just because some people have said it might make them feel slightly uncomfortable (and explained why in a polite way), it's a bit rich to tell them to keep their comments in their head when that was the very purpose of the thread,

By the same token, some people might feel uncomfortable if I'm lounging on the beach in a bikini (my kids included!). That's perfectly acceptable to me too.

I think there is a larger point that those who feel uncomfortable should or could interrogate why it makes them feel such a way, is it due to this poor Muslim woman trope that we’ve seen time and time again on the thread, because that’s quite problematic

like wise if I articulated that it makes me feel very uncomfortable to see an overweight person in swimwear (it doesn’t and I’m just using this as an example) I should reflect on why that is and what sort of prejudices I have that are making me feel that way

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MargotBamborough · 09/05/2023 16:08

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 15:57

I think there is a larger point that those who feel uncomfortable should or could interrogate why it makes them feel such a way, is it due to this poor Muslim woman trope that we’ve seen time and time again on the thread, because that’s quite problematic

like wise if I articulated that it makes me feel very uncomfortable to see an overweight person in swimwear (it doesn’t and I’m just using this as an example) I should reflect on why that is and what sort of prejudices I have that are making me feel that way

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It makes me uncomfortable because women do it and men don't.

dig135 · 09/05/2023 16:09

like wise if I articulated that it makes me feel very uncomfortable to see an overweight person in swimwear (it doesn’t and I’m just using this as an example) I should reflect on why that is and what sort of prejudices I have that are making me feel that way

Is it a prejudice? Bluntly, I know that 20 somethings with washboard stomachs look a lot better in their bikinis than me in my 40s with a muffin top. That's not prejudice against old or overweight people, it's just the reality. I honestly don't care if people judge me as I'm happy with my choices.

Original poster

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 16:09

MargotBamborough · 09/05/2023 16:08

It makes me uncomfortable because women do it and men don't.

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But does it make you uncomfortable that women cover their nipples and breast but men don’t?

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Original poster

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 16:12

dig135 · 09/05/2023 16:09

like wise if I articulated that it makes me feel very uncomfortable to see an overweight person in swimwear (it doesn’t and I’m just using this as an example) I should reflect on why that is and what sort of prejudices I have that are making me feel that way

Is it a prejudice? Bluntly, I know that 20 somethings with washboard stomachs look a lot better in their bikinis than me in my 40s with a muffin top. That's not prejudice against old or overweight people, it's just the reality. I honestly don't care if people judge me as I'm happy with my choices.

I think it is…to be uncomfortable by someone else’s body, their body isn’t impacting me or my life or my experience at the beach/ pool, so really what’s making me uncomfortable? A perception that only ‘thin’ bodies are beach bodies and that ‘fat’ bodies are something to be ashamed of and this hidden away?

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MargotBamborough · 09/05/2023 16:18

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 16:09

But does it make you uncomfortable that women cover their nipples and breast but men don’t?

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Yeah it kind of does actually. I would love to go topless on the beach or at the pool but I don't feel able to because I know I'd be breaking dress codes and I'd get stared at, judged and objectified. I wish we lived in a society where women could swim and sunbathe topless without anyone caring and without being the subject of unwanted attention.

But that is a very specific inequality that I think is only relevant at the beach or the swimming pool. I don't think it's appropriate for men to walk around topless in other situations. I don't want to see a man's nipples in the high street, or the pub, or when he's building my kitchen extension. When I worked in a beachside pub I used to ask men to put their shirts back on.

The difference with this is that it isn't just about whether your nipples are covered at the beach or the pool. We're talking varying degrees of full body, head and face coverings, and it applies to public life in general, not just swimming and sunbathing.

So I guess it's the same principle, i.e. different levels of freedom/standards of modesty for men and women, but on a much greater scale.

dig135 · 09/05/2023 16:20

No, I wear a bikini so not hiding my body away. But I don't have an issue if people want to think I'm perhaps on the older/more rounded side to wear a bikini as it's a fair and valid point in my eyes.

And even if it wasn't understandable, it wouldn't bother me as I don't really care what strangers think of me on the beach.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 09/05/2023 16:26

Curtain1980 · 09/05/2023 12:44

OP have you sat in a Bikink in the sun and then sat in your Burkhini? You’re saying there is no difference but having sat in my swimming cossie in the sun then with just my bikini bottoms on the balcony in the sun I can tell you now I would not want to be covered head to toe, there is a huge difference.

It’s about comfort too, isn’t it just people need to think otherwise of the ‘male gaze’ so to speak? I mean I’ve been on holiday with friends and family and seriously I’ve never seen anyone of the males look anywhere other than my face when they talk to me. You’re all out in your swimsuits on the beach and no one is looking at anyone in any particular way. That’s why I think you do draw attention with a burkhini.

I can't think of much more uncomfortable than sitting around in the equivalent of less than bra and knickers in the sun.

But I'm very celtic white/blue, so I guess you'd either lecture me about sun cream (most of which I'm allergic to) or body image (I don't care about the overhangs and stretch marks or the skin condition), rather than go 'aww, poor oppressed victim'.

I don't want sweat in my psoriasis, I don't want sunblock in it, I don't want my arse hanging out and I certainly don't want skin cancer. Seems like I'm allowed because of my ethnicity/absence of faith, but the OP isn't.

Blip · 09/05/2023 16:30

I think men should wear them too to avoid tempting women.

Original poster

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 16:31

MargotBamborough · 09/05/2023 16:18

Yeah it kind of does actually. I would love to go topless on the beach or at the pool but I don't feel able to because I know I'd be breaking dress codes and I'd get stared at, judged and objectified. I wish we lived in a society where women could swim and sunbathe topless without anyone caring and without being the subject of unwanted attention.

But that is a very specific inequality that I think is only relevant at the beach or the swimming pool. I don't think it's appropriate for men to walk around topless in other situations. I don't want to see a man's nipples in the high street, or the pub, or when he's building my kitchen extension. When I worked in a beachside pub I used to ask men to put their shirts back on.

The difference with this is that it isn't just about whether your nipples are covered at the beach or the pool. We're talking varying degrees of full body, head and face coverings, and it applies to public life in general, not just swimming and sunbathing.

So I guess it's the same principle, i.e. different levels of freedom/standards of modesty for men and women, but on a much greater scale.

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Well I’ve definitely seen men walking around topless in the heat of summer. I think women still walk a fine line in the west with what they wear, too skimpy an outfit and she’s a slut or provocatively dresses, too conservative and she’s a frump. I think women are subject to much more policing than men are with regards to their outfit choice, this isn’t just exclusive to Muslims.

but I think you’re making a crucial mistake in thought of equating less clothes with more liberation or somehow being ‘unfair’ to women, aside from oppressive theocracies, Muslim women don’t feel that way. Traditional dress in arab countries for a man is a thobe and red and white check head covering, for women it’s a black abaya and light chiffon scarf called a shayla. The abaya is like a cloak of a coat… In Pakistani is a Salaam kameez for both, with a dupatta for the women, it’s not as if Muslim men are ok to wear speedos and women have to suffer in a thick burqa.

plus actually the abaya is super cool… it’s a light weight maxi dress and women often just wear it with a vest and shorts underneath or maybe just their underwear if out in the heat, the shayla is like a piece of chiffon, not hotter than a sun hat

OP posts:

Original poster

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 16:33

dig135 · 09/05/2023 16:20

No, I wear a bikini so not hiding my body away. But I don't have an issue if people want to think I'm perhaps on the older/more rounded side to wear a bikini as it's a fair and valid point in my eyes.

And even if it wasn't understandable, it wouldn't bother me as I don't really care what strangers think of me on the beach.

That’s if it would bother you, but if the individual was so made uncomfortable with your presence, that’s a me problem, not a you problem and it shows me I’ve got some work to do on myself

OP posts:

CaptainMyCaptain · 09/05/2023 16:33

NeverDropYourMooncup · 09/05/2023 16:26

I can't think of much more uncomfortable than sitting around in the equivalent of less than bra and knickers in the sun.

But I'm very celtic white/blue, so I guess you'd either lecture me about sun cream (most of which I'm allergic to) or body image (I don't care about the overhangs and stretch marks or the skin condition), rather than go 'aww, poor oppressed victim'.

I don't want sweat in my psoriasis, I don't want sunblock in it, I don't want my arse hanging out and I certainly don't want skin cancer. Seems like I'm allowed because of my ethnicity/absence of faith, but the OP isn't.

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Exactly. Me too.

Original poster

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 16:35

Blip · 09/05/2023 16:30

I think men should wear them too to avoid tempting women.

It’s not about not tempting men… but men are to dress modestly too… no shorts above the knee and a swim t shirt

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Original poster

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 16:39

^salwaar kameez, stupid autocorrect

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MargotBamborough · 09/05/2023 16:55

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 16:31

Well I’ve definitely seen men walking around topless in the heat of summer. I think women still walk a fine line in the west with what they wear, too skimpy an outfit and she’s a slut or provocatively dresses, too conservative and she’s a frump. I think women are subject to much more policing than men are with regards to their outfit choice, this isn’t just exclusive to Muslims.

but I think you’re making a crucial mistake in thought of equating less clothes with more liberation or somehow being ‘unfair’ to women, aside from oppressive theocracies, Muslim women don’t feel that way. Traditional dress in arab countries for a man is a thobe and red and white check head covering, for women it’s a black abaya and light chiffon scarf called a shayla. The abaya is like a cloak of a coat… In Pakistani is a Salaam kameez for both, with a dupatta for the women, it’s not as if Muslim men are ok to wear speedos and women have to suffer in a thick burqa.

plus actually the abaya is super cool… it’s a light weight maxi dress and women often just wear it with a vest and shorts underneath or maybe just their underwear if out in the heat, the shayla is like a piece of chiffon, not hotter than a sun hat

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Yes, we've all seen men walking around topless in non swimming scenarios, and isn't that telling? I don't feel free to swim or sunbathe wearing just a pair of bikini bottoms, even though that is a situation in which being half naked is not actually weird, but Dave over here feels free to walk down the street wearing just a pair of shorts as soon as the thermometer hits 23 degrees. Not a care in the world for people who may feel awkward or embarrassed or nauseated by the sight of his flabby man boobs, and if any woman did objectify him, he'd probably see it as a compliment rather than an act of aggression.

As for Muslims, it all seems rather context specific. However, I do remain sceptical about the idea that it is a completely free choice, knowing as I do that putting a bikini top on isn't a completely free choice for me, but something I do because being as unclothed as men are is not acceptable in society.

And I struggle with the idea of women completely voluntarily choosing to wear the same garments which are used to oppress other women in countries like Iran.

Original poster

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 17:00

MargotBamborough · 09/05/2023 16:55

Yes, we've all seen men walking around topless in non swimming scenarios, and isn't that telling? I don't feel free to swim or sunbathe wearing just a pair of bikini bottoms, even though that is a situation in which being half naked is not actually weird, but Dave over here feels free to walk down the street wearing just a pair of shorts as soon as the thermometer hits 23 degrees. Not a care in the world for people who may feel awkward or embarrassed or nauseated by the sight of his flabby man boobs, and if any woman did objectify him, he'd probably see it as a compliment rather than an act of aggression.

As for Muslims, it all seems rather context specific. However, I do remain sceptical about the idea that it is a completely free choice, knowing as I do that putting a bikini top on isn't a completely free choice for me, but something I do because being as unclothed as men are is not acceptable in society.

And I struggle with the idea of women completely voluntarily choosing to wear the same garments which are used to oppress other women in countries like Iran.

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No choice is a free choice, it’s all influenced by something or other and it oppressive in iran because of the act of compulsion not the garment itself… that line of reasoning can extend to everything though, high heels trafficked sex workers are forced to wear them, and skimpy revealing tops and clothes.

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MargotBamborough · 09/05/2023 17:03

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 17:00

No choice is a free choice, it’s all influenced by something or other and it oppressive in iran because of the act of compulsion not the garment itself… that line of reasoning can extend to everything though, high heels trafficked sex workers are forced to wear them, and skimpy revealing tops and clothes.

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Ah, well you could write a feminist essay just about high heels, I think!

By the way, in France (where I live) your husband wouldn't be allowed to wear knee length shorts at the swimming pool. It's Speedos or nothing. He would he required to cover his head though for hygiene reasons. Even if he happens to be completely bald. 🙃

NeverDropYourMooncup · 09/05/2023 17:05

MargotBamborough · 09/05/2023 17:03

Ah, well you could write a feminist essay just about high heels, I think!

By the way, in France (where I live) your husband wouldn't be allowed to wear knee length shorts at the swimming pool. It's Speedos or nothing. He would he required to cover his head though for hygiene reasons. Even if he happens to be completely bald. 🙃

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Did you notice the post where the OP said she's half French? I suspect she isn't in need of somebody informing her what is or isn't allowed in France.

Original poster

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 17:15

MargotBamborough · 09/05/2023 17:03

Ah, well you could write a feminist essay just about high heels, I think!

By the way, in France (where I live) your husband wouldn't be allowed to wear knee length shorts at the swimming pool. It's Speedos or nothing. He would he required to cover his head though for hygiene reasons. Even if he happens to be completely bald. 🙃

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Is that enforced though because I’ve been to quite a few pools in France and he’s worn his shorts and I my burkini and no one has batted an eyelid, there were lots of people dressed the same? Is there an exception for tourists?

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AngryBirdsNoMore · 09/05/2023 17:17

margarine17 · 09/05/2023 10:11

I'm not a nutter. I just don't live in the UK.
In answer to your answer .
Indonesia - has a province called Aceh - they have sharia law ( muslim again) and whip people who break certain laws.
Malaysia - check out the sedition act.
That's seriously the best you've got. And you call me a nutter.
Another question - why is there not an influx of immigrants to Muslim countries? It's always the other way. Do you never stop and think about that? Why do you live in the UK?

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Stop attacking OP because she’s muslim. She isn’t responsible for all Islam and every Muslim.

Original poster

Mvslimah · 09/05/2023 17:26

Also @MargotBamborough that’s the point isn’t it, scratch the surface and many of our accepted norms like high heels or basically underwear for swimming may also be used as tools of oppression.

im assuming your french but I’m desperately trying to find the quote from Foucault on the power of subverting a tool of oppression into a tool of power but I cant… 😥

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