To think boys shouldn’t go in to men’s toilets???

[Scotlandma]

This is hypothetical I seen another post about someone not letting their 9 year old use mens public bathrooms

what age do other people let their children go in to toilets on their own?

and how do you navigate them using the disabled toilets if not?? I’d be so worried in case someone actually disabled needed them

17 year olds are children who sometimes even have babies themselves legally.

To be fair, I expect the Mumsnet regular threads about boys in the women's toilet has become a rite of passage in its own way. I remember debating the same thing when my boy was very young, and thinking that no, I will never ever let him go in the men's 🤣 But of course it did get me thinking about it, and what to do to keep DC safe, and as always, there's plenty of good advice and tips on here. So when ds took matters into his own hands at around 5.5 years, it was a struggle, (for me) but we did get through it, and it was helpful to know that out there, there was lots of other lone mums going through exactly the same thing. So, these threads are useful, even for that. It all looks negative, but the majority of boys don't go into the toilet with there mum past around 8, 9 at the very oldest, in the real world.

*their

But you are taking what I said out of context. Your whole issue with young boys using the ladies is because of what you experienced. I said what you experienced was very rare, as you said it was 2 boys, who were each accompanied by a parent, but still the assault happened (unsure if your parent was also there). When young boys are alone in the mens, they possibly have NO adult to stop the abuse that is MORE likely to occur (I assume more adult males sexually abuse than 9 year old boys).

You have constantly twisted my words, at one point saying I said girls are less likely to be abused, which is absolutely wrong and not what I said at all.

You seem to have real issues with men in general (understandable, I know) but I think this is making you very short sighted.

Your point being? Nobody is taking their 17 year old male children into the ladies.

So, based on your personal experience, you perceive 9 year old boys accompanied by their mothers to be a greater sexual threat to women and girls than transwomen who can self ID?

@Secondwindplease I'm interested to know who you think, on a day to day basis, should make the safeguarding decision about where a young, vulnerable male child, who needs to go to the loo, should go then? Who else is there, practically speaking, if he's just out with his mum?

And more broadly, which community is it that is interested in keeping young boys protected from the risk of harm? I hear about the need for women and girls to have privacy and dignity and single sex spaces and I understand this position. I am a woman myself after all. What I can't understand is how privacy and dignity trumps safety, when it comes to children.

@roaringmouse If the boy is vulnerable because of special needs then I think it is fair for him and a caregiver to use the disabled toilet, at any age. As far as I know this would be a fair use of the disabled toilets.

If the boy is vulnerable through age alone, then it’s a sliding scale surely. Nobody would object to babes in arms or toddlers, or I imagine early primary school age. But the onus is then on the mother to transition him to using the men’s. She can do this by helping him to develop the judgement to recognise an unsafe situation and the communication skills to raise the alarm, as these are ultimately the things that will reduce risk - not just in the short term but for the rest of his life.

As I’ve said before, it’s not the presence of boys that actually bothers me, it’s the way some people blow risk out of proportion and say to hell with everyone else that gets me.

Secondwindplease

My son knew all that, he couldn’t get out. He wasn’t abused because I hadn’t given him life skills he was abused because it was an unsafe space. It doesn’t take long for a child to be abused and impacted for a very long time.

I send my two boys age 5 and 8 in together, if I was alone with my 5 year old I’d take him into the women’s but I’d let my 8 year old go into the men’s alone I think, but that situation hasn’t arisen yet.

Yes, there is always some risk at any age. It is desperately sad and I’m not for a moment suggesting your son should or could have done anything different. I’m so sorry that happened.

Thanks for your measured response.

I think of a 7 year old boy as being vulnerable because he is 7, just like I would see a 7 year old girl as being vulnerable, irrespective of SEND.

Unfortunately, with the best will in the world, teaching a 7 year old boy or girl what to do in the face of an adult sexual predator is fraught with peril. And surely, if it were that straightforward, no child, male or female, would ever become a victim of sexual assault or abuse.

It can take seconds to cause traumatic, life lasting consequences to a child and whilst I agree that at some point boys need to use the male loos, in my view this has to be a decision taken by the mother (or main caregiver) based on the individual child's needs and maturity level, as ultimately, she will also live with the consequences for the rest of her life, should she make the wrong call.

Have you seen how many girls get sexually assaulted at school?

Autistic children are poorly-parented apparently. We heard it here first.

Who was objecting to five year olds accompanying their parents? No one expects five year olds to go in on their own.

And you clearly know nothing about stabbings if you think that they're always acquisitive.

My DS has ASD so i will use the disabled loos once he is 8.

Can I ask why 8? My son also has ASD and I do bring him into the ladies with me, I hadn’t given it a second thought to be honest, and no one has ever given us a second glance. He is 8.

My son is 13 now but we stopped using the ladies at around 7 and moved to the disabled toilets. My view was although he doesn’t understand it he still deserves the dignity and privacy of not being made to use the ladies toilets and it was getting towards the age where it may have made girls feel uncomfy too.

Typical MN response. Of course, now the child is autistic.

So what happens if the boy is autistic? Or does that not matter?

What do you do in the scenario of a unisex toilets where the sink might be in a communal area? How do you manage that?

What do you mean "now"? A PP's daughter was autistic and is now terrified of public toilets after a 10 year old boy stood there staring at her when she opened the cubicle door.

If the boy is autistic and cannot use the men's then as he cannot use the toilet independently (at least in this circumstance) he would need to use an accessible toilet.

If unisex toilets are not self-contained then they do not meet the design standards.

Where and who are these dodgy men lurking in male toilets? As an adult I've yet to encounter any issues my many years.
I think by and large these are a figment of your imagination, better to teach your children how to be alert, assertive and discuss how they might react should they encounter a threatening or uncomfortable situation.
Having older children follow you into toilets flies in the face of wanting single sex spaces for women, just as women using male cubicles when there are huge queues for female facilities at large events is also counter to the need for single sex spaces.

How naive are you. I would love to live in your bubble of ignorance.

Statistically what are the realities of this situation? So even though it's more likely a young boy could get assaulted in a toilet too bad? Maybe if PP is so worried about her child, then she should use the disabled toilets (although I think you'll find many disabled people will not be happy with their toilets being used either). What would PP do if a girl with short hair and non girly clothes was staring at her? What about a manly looking woman? What about a woman with facial hair? I'm just using these example to highlight how ridiculous some of these responses are ... in the real world. The scenario of a mum and her young son in the toilet harrasing other people is very unlikely.

You're arguing that no risk is acceptable for boys no matter what, but some risk is acceptable for girls. How is any of that acceptable? Instead of campaigning to make things acceptable for all children, you're just going to focus on the boys and say tough shit to the girls.

All toilets are technically unisex now as anyone can use the toilet ‘ that they feel most comfortable in’. Only new builds have to ensure everyone has a separate space with the recent revisions to building regs.