Page 14 | Made in Chelsea blokes - twins via surrogate

HermioneKipper · 2023-04-25T18:39:17+00:00

More “celebs” commissioning a woman’s body to buy a baby. When is this going to be made illegal 😡 And twins again. So many of them have twins. I think I get a bit triggered by this especially as I have twins and know how dangerous twin pregnancy can be for both mother and babies. And what it does to a woman’s body. No one could consent to this. Had to switch off Giovanna Fletcher and her simpering podcast when they started talking about “their” miscarriages. Horrific amounts of bleeding, pain and horrendous wrenching emotional pain for you was it mates? No, didn’t think so.

RosaBonheur · 26/04/2023 21:47

LotionsAndPotions995 · 25/04/2023 20:25

It's unfair to say men aren't able to have biological children just simply because of the fact they are gay!

It's clearly not the same case for lesbians or single mothers who choose to have children without a man, as they can buy/use a sperm donor and impregnate themselves.

Surrogacy at the levels it is used is wrong yes but why deprive gay or single males the fact of having a biological child just because they don't have a womb! Surely what's good for the goose is good for the gander and single or gay females should also "adopt or foster" instead of using a surrogate sperm donor.

Different yes but in theory exactly the same sexist argument.

Because it's not about what's "fair" for grown adults. It's about what's best for the unborn child.

LongAway · 26/04/2023 21:47

Poor babies, they had to deal with the brain damage induced at birth and then deal with narcissist parents.

LongAway · 26/04/2023 21:55

drspouse · 26/04/2023 16:09

Though slightly more seriously:

The best way for gay men to be dads is to co-parent with a lesbian couple who they are friends with.
If they don't have any women friends, I'd seriously question whether they are suitable parents.

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This is what used to happen.

Like any man if they can't find a woman (who they don't have to pay) to reproduce with them they won't make a good parent.

Humans shouldn't be bought and sold as slaves to narcs from birth.

Link3 · 27/04/2023 00:55

It is the right of every child to know its parents. A right which is enshrined in the UN Convention on the rights of the child. Recent changes to laws reflect this. Adoptees now have a right to trace their birth parents and anonymous donation of genetic material is outlawed in the UK. These changes came about because these children grew up and demanded change. It mattered a great deal to them to know who they were and where they had come from. As a result we now recognise that it is ethically wrong to withhold this information. Was the egg donation in this instance carried out anonymously? Will this child be denied the right to know its Brazilian mother? I'd like to know the answer to that. I'd also be fascinated to know whether he/she will grow up to feel a similar need to meet their birth mother? Or will that be a passing curiosity perhaps? We live in interesting times.

Mamai90 · 27/04/2023 04:25

I used to think surrogacy was a lovely idea but over time and reading certain things I'm now totally against it unless it's altruistic. I think its fine to do for a sibling where no money exchanges hands but it's the renting a womb that I take issue with for all the reasons mentioned by other posters.

drspouse · 27/04/2023 09:46

Mamai90 · 27/04/2023 04:25

I used to think surrogacy was a lovely idea but over time and reading certain things I'm now totally against it unless it's altruistic. I think its fine to do for a sibling where no money exchanges hands but it's the renting a womb that I take issue with for all the reasons mentioned by other posters.

Can you not see any problems with doing this for a family member, even if it's started with the best intentions?
This story only goes up to the birth, and already the mother was finding her family members were too intrusive, her daughter was anxious about being given away. What happens when the family all meets up and the twins ask her how she could give them away? When she disagrees with how the children are being raised? Normally you'd expect to get parenting advice (sometimes actually helpful) from family members who have children, this makes the whole relationship completely unnatural.
What if the twins want to live with her when they are older? This is very common for adoptive children.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/27/secret-diary-of-a-surrogate-mother

Secret diary of a surrogate mother

Your brother and his wife are desperate for a child. You offer to help – but will you really be able to give up the twins you've carried for nine months? A surrogate mother tells her story…

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/27/secret-diary-of-a-surrogate-mother

OriginalUsername2 · 27/04/2023 10:49

Oddessa · 25/04/2023 20:45

So you’re against gay people having children.

What about a child who has a mother who dies? Maybe that father should give them up for adoption to a straight couple.

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That’s a crap argument, sorry. Apples and oranges there.

I wouldn’t say I’m “against gay people having children”. I just don’t think it’s in the best interests of the child. I don’t think screaming chavvy mum & dad parents are in the best interests of the child either.

OriginalUsername2 · 27/04/2023 11:01

Londongal123 · 25/04/2023 20:48

I can't believe how homophobic mumsnet is. All these crazy ladies typing behind a keyboard shit they wouldn't say to their neighbour.

I had a gay male friend back in the day who didn’t believe two men should raise a child. He was very close to his mum. How can it be homophobic?! It’s an opinion on raising children.

OriginalUsername2 · 27/04/2023 11:05

Jazsimone · 25/04/2023 20:55

@HermioneKipper

"I’m not homophobic at all. I know two gay couples that have adopted and think it’s wonderful."

The classic "I have a gay friend" COURSE YOU DO.

God there is no room for nuance on mumsnet is there.

Original poster

HermioneKipper · 27/04/2023 12:09

drspouse · 27/04/2023 09:46

Can you not see any problems with doing this for a family member, even if it's started with the best intentions?
This story only goes up to the birth, and already the mother was finding her family members were too intrusive, her daughter was anxious about being given away. What happens when the family all meets up and the twins ask her how she could give them away? When she disagrees with how the children are being raised? Normally you'd expect to get parenting advice (sometimes actually helpful) from family members who have children, this makes the whole relationship completely unnatural.
What if the twins want to live with her when they are older? This is very common for adoptive children.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/27/secret-diary-of-a-surrogate-mother

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I found this article chilling

OP posts:

Clymene · 27/04/2023 12:17

It's nothing to do with MN not having nuance @OriginalUsername2, it's about a targeted attempt to reframe disquiet about surrogacy as homophobia.

Clymene · 27/04/2023 12:27

Woah, that article

Comby · 27/04/2023 12:35

For those accusing everyone of homophobia, why don't you search the bloody archive for past surrogacy threads involving straight couples - you'll discover the exact same arguments against surrogacy being made. Sophie Beresiner (straight married woman) was particularly loathed.

Original poster

HermioneKipper · 27/04/2023 12:47

Yes I’m no longer responding to people accusing me of being homophobic. I’m not and I know I’m not. I don’t care if you’re straight or gay, man or woman - surrogacy in all forms is wrong for ANYONE.

I’ve said many times and been disbelieved (!) that I’m friends with a gay couple who’ve adopted and I think it’s wonderful. Those children were in a horrible situation in the foster system and it’s fantastic that they are now much happier (albeit with huge issues to deal with) in a loving home.

I can also understand why people would rather use surrogates than adopt as adoption is extremely hard and often the child or children has a lot of trauma.

That doesn’t make it ok to exploit a woman’s body to get what you want - essential buying a baby. I disagree with it fundamentally. And that comes from a place of wanting to protect women and their bodies from people who would use them for their own gain.

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ChateauMargaux · 27/04/2023 12:49

That article is harrowing... beautifully written but hard to read.

Nick said 'I need one of my own'...

Original poster

HermioneKipper · 27/04/2023 12:57

ChateauMargaux · 27/04/2023 12:49

That article is harrowing... beautifully written but hard to read.

Nick said 'I need one of my own'...

WANT WANT WANT. All about what the adult wants.

not a passing thought to the babies and what they might want.

They won’t be able to contact their biological mother - the egg donor - because their new mother said no. They’ll know they were taken away from their birth mother immediately. She had no say in whether she could breastfeed - no thought about her feelings or what it might do to her body. (I was absolutely drowning in milk at a twin mum on day 3 and in pain with engorgement)

It was such a sad read. Especially her daughter wondering if she too would be given away 😢

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inigomontoyahwillcox · 27/04/2023 13:10

It is categorically not homophobic to say that 2 gay people who are not biologically able to get pregnant and birth a child (AKA men) have the right to get a child by another means. Creating a child is not a right FFS.

Just like it isn't transphobic if the prospective parent was trans or ableist (for want of a better term) if they were suffering from infertility, etc.

Life is not fair - this perceived right for everything to be 100% hunky dory for you all of the time (and sod the consequences for anyone who may be harmed in the process), is utterly ridiculous, and the epitome of narcissism. Especially if this isn't down to an illness/condition but instead due to you not being in the 50% of the population that were built to produce and carry children (again, AKA men).

You don't NEED one of your own, you WANT one of your own. This may be an incredibly strong desire, but it doesn't automatically give you the right.

Full disclosure, I have secondary infertility, I have also supported a gay colleague's (successful) application to adopt by writing him a letter of recommendation.

OutsideLookingOut · 27/04/2023 13:14

ComtesseDeSpair · 25/04/2023 20:57

How other people parent is up to them. Not everyone agrees that surrogacy is “ripping a baby away from its mother.” There will be aspects of your parenting which some other people would deem inadequate or abusive. If they believe that that’s the case, then they have the option to parent their children differently, just as you have the option not to use a surrogate if you dislike it and think it’s wrong.

The more time I spend on MN reading about all the fucked up situations people decide to have babies in, the more I realise quite how many people really aren’t equipped to be parents at all due to ill-health, neurodiversity, emotional immaturity, financial instability, shit relationships, or just their own sheer utter selfishness - except they’re fertile heterosexual people, so nobody can stop them doing what they want. Start there condemning those idiots, if you give a shit about the well-being of babies.

I may not be pro surrogacy (think there should be a lot of checks involved, just be from compassion rather than financial etc) but I completely agree with this.

ChateauMargaux · 27/04/2023 13:53

Echoing that it is not homophobic to say that taking a baby away from the woman who grew it in her uterus at the moment of birth is inflicting intentional trauma onto that child. There is a physiological connection between the birthing human and the child which results in neurological changes as part of the gestation and birth process, that is totally absent from any connection between the baby and the male human who provided the sperm, even though they will be genetically linked. There are other neurological links and developments that are made in the days and weeks after birth that does bond babies to their immediate care givers, so they will also bond with the intended parents but severing this link between birthing human and child, is trauma which will impact both the birthing human and the child. How they assimilate that trauma is dependant on many other factors and it may not be evident in the future, but it will be imprinted on them forever.

Original poster

HermioneKipper · 27/04/2023 13:54

ChateauMargaux · 27/04/2023 13:53

Echoing that it is not homophobic to say that taking a baby away from the woman who grew it in her uterus at the moment of birth is inflicting intentional trauma onto that child. There is a physiological connection between the birthing human and the child which results in neurological changes as part of the gestation and birth process, that is totally absent from any connection between the baby and the male human who provided the sperm, even though they will be genetically linked. There are other neurological links and developments that are made in the days and weeks after birth that does bond babies to their immediate care givers, so they will also bond with the intended parents but severing this link between birthing human and child, is trauma which will impact both the birthing human and the child. How they assimilate that trauma is dependant on many other factors and it may not be evident in the future, but it will be imprinted on them forever.

Birthing human?

you mean mother right?

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ChateauMargaux · 27/04/2023 14:00

Well yes, in my mind... but there was some discussion earlier on the thread over the titles, if the person gestating the child is not the egg provider..

Original poster

HermioneKipper · 27/04/2023 14:06

ChateauMargaux · 27/04/2023 14:00

Well yes, in my mind... but there was some discussion earlier on the thread over the titles, if the person gestating the child is not the egg provider..

WOMAN not person gestating

Biological mother (egg donor) or Birth mother (pregnant mother) will do.

I do agree with all your other points

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Clymene · 27/04/2023 14:43

In U.K. law currently, a woman who gives birth to a child is its mother. We make no distinction if the genetic material that contributed to that child is hers or not. In fact, if you look at the conception boards here, women who use another women's eggs to conceive a child do not consider that woman to be the child's biological mother, they refer to her as the donor.

I find the way the language changes depending on whether the mother is going to keep the baby or not very interesting.

00100001 · 27/04/2023 15:10

ChateauMargaux · 27/04/2023 14:00

Well yes, in my mind... but there was some discussion earlier on the thread over the titles, if the person gestating the child is not the egg provider..

Woman gestating*

Fixed it for you.

LongAway · 27/04/2023 15:10

Clymene · 27/04/2023 14:43

In U.K. law currently, a woman who gives birth to a child is its mother. We make no distinction if the genetic material that contributed to that child is hers or not. In fact, if you look at the conception boards here, women who use another women's eggs to conceive a child do not consider that woman to be the child's biological mother, they refer to her as the donor.

I find the way the language changes depending on whether the mother is going to keep the baby or not very interesting.

Poor children.

Accessories for for selfish narcs with sob stories, who think only of themselves.