Should we let DD2 come to meal?

[Funkyslippers]

DD2 (14) accidentally left the key in the front door when she came in today. OH noticed when he came in the house not long after but she is frequently careless (leaving windows open when she goes out etc). She refused to take responsibility or apologise, reasoning that nobody took the key, nothing bad happened, so it's all fine. We explained that someone could have easily taken the key. He's now saying she can't come out for a meal with us tonight, also with DD1 (19). She's v upset but still refusing to apologise but I don't like going out for a nice meal and leaving her at home miserable. Wwyd?

What would a forced apology be good for?

I would try working out why is she behaving like that rather then keep punishing her.

Most children i meet are lovely. But maybe that's because they have lovely parents who treat them with empathy (I tend to back away from friends who are controlling parents and I think less of them when I see how they treat their children)

Trouble with going nuclear and laying down punishments that outweigh the over sight is that if you on this case leave her behind she might find that she enjoys having the house to herself and won’t want to come out again with you all I mean even if she did apologise the meal bid a waste of money as there is so much bad feelings

I've done this. DH left the door open and was halfway to Germany before he had a bad feeling and had to get the police to go round and shut the door. I left my back door open in London while I went away for a weekend.

Neither of us are neurotypical. Neither of us get too upset (or if he starts snarking me due to his HFA I remind him of the Germany thing and he backs off).

Natural consequences for not accepting her fault would be taking the key off her, while the family accepts forgetfulness is a real thing that everyone has to some extent. Take the child out - that level of excluding from family life is not warranted.

Have you ever tried asking a child to come back to you with what they think the consequence should be? I find my teenagers have mini-epiphanies when I do this. Make them responsible for their own punishments and they have a good think about things.

I guess op is at the meal now, will we ever find out if her dh relented!

But the removal of privilege is not because of the mistake, it's for not the behaviour after the mistake was made. Most parents can tell when a child is being sincere so a flippant "Sorry" is not going to cut it.

If my DD left her key in the door, I found it and asked her to be more careful then her automatic response would be words to the effect of "Sorry, I'll be more careful/I'll try and remember" and that would be perfectly acceptable as an acceptance that she has personal responsibility for her actions and I would not apply any other consequence for the "first offence". If this was the 3rd time in two weeks it had happened then the natural consequence would be for me to remove the key for a period of time until I could trust her to be more responsible, or let her keep the key on condition we sit down together and figure out ways to reduce it happening again.

If my DD left her key in the door, I found it and asked her to be more careful and her response was "Whatever" or "it's no big deal, I just forgot, get over it!" then that is not acceptable and I would expect an apology for her attitude. Any consequence in removal of privileges would be in response to her behaviour and attitude after the fact, not for the initial accident of leaving the key in the door.

I hope you decided to let her join you OP.

Melj123, my DC were never really punished but they managed to avoid behaving in an "entitled" way. They've grown up to be pretty amazing people that have professional roles in public services and give back to their communities.

When they were young we accepted that they were human and would make mistakes. We accepted that as teenagers we would have small spats as they asserted themselves. We never demanded forced (fake) apologies or imposed ridiculous sanctions esp over a non event.
Your behaviour is bordering on controlling and I think the evening out is ruined anyway.

Melj123 - Consequences, privileges, you use those words alot

I'm almost 30 and I left the key in the lock the other day so I think it's a little harsh yes. I gave myself a little telling off and that's it. She's 14 she probably knows it was silly

Of course it was an innocent mistake but the dismissive attitude is not okay.
Yes she should come for the meal but there needs to be a proper discussion about why you are so disappointed in her not taking responsibility, not taking it seriously, and how serious the consequences could have been for the whole family. She may not apologise - teens can stubborn and not want to admit being wrong, but hopefully she will take on board your feelings and respond more maturely to your concerns in the future. I think explain your position clearly then de-escalate, I really wouldn't try to force an apology, but hopefully you will get one next time!

I don't think you understand the concept of a mistake or accident. Poor kid.

Seems messed up to me.
How is missing a meal connected to forgetting a key?
Would the rest of the family even enjoy the meal without her?
What are you actually trying to achieve?
In what way will this approach achieve it?

If my DD left her key in the door, I found it and asked her to be more careful and her response was "Whatever" or "it's no big deal, I just forgot, get over it!" then that is not acceptable and I would expect an apology for her attitude. Any consequence in removal of privileges would be in response to her behaviour and attitude after the fact, not for the initial accident of leaving the key in the door.

Whereas to me, that's just a huge overreaction. I can't imagine ever withdrawing privileges for such a minor error in judgement which shouldn't necessitate an apology in the first place.

I've left my keys in the door before - DH came home a few hours later and gave them to me - my only response was "Oh, that's where I left them!". Similarly, DH forgot to lock up once - he didn't feel the need to apologise either. Because in both cases, it was just a mistake. It's nothing that needs to be apologised for.

Because we are discussing the topic of consequences of actions and I am highlighting the difference between privilege and rights, treats are a privilege that are earned, but can also be removed, based on behaviour. DD has a right to eat dinner, but it is a privilege to go out for dinner ... what language should I be using to differentiate between things that are basic essentials and things that are nice to have but are not necessities?

Why is it a bad thing for children to have consequences? There are consequences to DDs actions, some consequences are positive and others are negative but they are entirely shaped by DDs choices and decisions.

Funkyslippers

I agree that it was an accident but she's being completely defiant and refusing to take responsibility or apologise. As I said before, that is the issue here

But did she refuse to apologise before or after the punishment of not taking her for a meal was given out.

That is the issue

It's not the error that is the issue it's the attitude that follows.

DD losing items is not an issue except from the inconvenience side but if she starts being flippant or rude when I ask her to be more careful, especially if I am then going to have to bear a cost to replace the item or her loss/forgetfulness has a potential consequence for more than just her (eg if she had left the key in the door and it had lead to the house being burgled and our insurance not covering it) then it shows disrespect to me and shows she doesn't take responsibility for her actions. I do not stand for that behaviour in my DD.

As an adult, if I leave my keys somewhere then the consequence that comes from that - having to call out a locksmith, being inconvenienced because I can't get in, potentially being burgled etc - are all on me and I have no choice but to take responsibility for that. I would not expect DD to take on the full responsibility as an adult, but it is not unreasonable to expect age appropriate responsibility from her. If she is old enough to have a key then she is old enough to take responsibility for it, if she can't or won't take responsibility then there needs to be a consequence for that.

You can make a mistake and acknowledge that you have done something wrong and you can have an accident and acknowledge that your actions contributed to the outcome.

It's not unreasonable to expect someone to take responsibility for the actions that lead to the accident/mistake and acknowledge they could have done better.

Kids will make mistakes but they should be taught that part of making a mistake is taking responsibility for it.

It's not the error that is the issue it's the attitude that follows.

But she probably wouldn't have an attitude if she wasn't being forced to apologise for a simple mistake in the first place.

it shows disrespect to me and shows she doesn't take responsibility for her actions. I do not stand for that behaviour in my DD.

But apologising doesn't mean you're taking responsibility - it just means you're saying sorry because you know it will get you out of a sticky situation. So in your DD's case, she knows you would withdraw privileges so she'd apologise to keep her privileges, not necessarily because she was genuinely taking responsibility.

If she is old enough to have a key then she is old enough to take responsibility for it, if she can't or won't take responsibility then there needs to be a consequence for that.

Yes, and the consequence would be that she can no longer be trusted with a key. There doesn't need to be further consequences (or punishments) on top of that. The loss of the key is enough.

@HaveSomeIntrospect

who is he to say?
well he’s her dad and presumably the one paying for the meal (along with op) so yeah he does have some say lol

Yes, and the consequence would be that she can no longer be trusted with a key. There doesn't need to be further consequences (or punishments) on top of that. The loss of the key is enough.

Yes the loss of the key is enough for the initial accident of forgetting the key.

However, the subsequent disrespectful and/or rude behaviour stemming from the initial incident also requires a consequence and in this case it would be loss of the treat of going out for a meal.

I'm not banishing DD to her room without dinner, but if she has been rude or disrespectful to me then I am not going to spend money to take her out for dinner, especially if she has proven to me that she doesn't know how to behave appropriately at the moment. When she can show me she can behave appropriately then I will gladly take her out to dinner on a future occasion.

However, the subsequent disrespectful and/or rude behaviour stemming from the initial incident also requires a consequence and in this case it would be loss of the treat of going out for a meal.
But didn't that happen because the situation was blown up out of all proportion and turned into a battle if wills? She was probably embarrassed and upset.
I have never understood the need for forced apologies use what is the point? And I've never been a fan of punishments either I don't think they are necessary. You can teach a child to take responsibility for their actions and think through the implications of their behaviour without bringing punishment into the equation.
Fyi my children are now grown up, and they are very kind, thoughtful successful people. And also very good parents.

However, the subsequent disrespectful and/or rude behaviour stemming from the initial incident also requires a consequence and in this case it would be loss of the treat of going out for a meal.

But none of that behaviour would have happened if the original incident hadn't been blown out of proportion.

All they needed to say to her was "please remember to take your key out of the door when you come in - if it keeps happening we'll have to take it off you" - there's no need for anyone to apologise or drag it out into something it's not.

Exactly what @GOW56 and @coffeecupsandwaxmelts said

IMO teens need clear boundaries, and guidance, but there is no need for silly punishments and weird battles of will

so badly handled

She probably felt ashamed and then went on the defensive. You can't force an apology, it's not a true one is it if forced?

A calm conversation is best, sharing how she put herself and the house at risk. How would she feel if you all went out and one of you left the house unlocked and she lost her mobile? Would she feel she needed an apology?