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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not want to live with my child again?

325 replies

Namechangeteach · 14/04/2023 11:53

This an attention seeking, goady title, sorry, but I've posted about this situation before and got no responses so I'm deliberately braving it in here. It's likely to be long in order to avoid drip feeding, but I'm happy to clarify details I may forget.

As mentioned, I've posted of this before, and I've namechanged because this is outing and I don't fancy the rest of my posting history being attached to this issue.

Long story short, some time ago, earlier this year, my eldest DS had some sort of meltdown. For context, DS is (now) 16, he turned 16 a few weeks ago. His father and I split before he was 2. Ex was/is abusive, coercive, controlling and a true narcissist. I am still processing and working through the trauma the relationship left me. I have, however, been extremely happily married to my now DH for 10 years and we have 3 younger DC together: 1 teen and 2 primary aged. DS1 always lived with me/us, and called DH dad through his own choice, though he knows he is SD and has had mostly regular contact with his father.

DS1 was diagnosed with Asperger's aged 5 and has struggled socially and educationally comensurate with this, though he is academically very capable. He is deeply embarassed by his diagnosis, despite our best attempts to destigmatise. We have always accepted and loved him the way he is, however he has also always been an extremely difficult child - beyond that expected with an ASD diagnosis. He is manipulative, deceitful, has been violent when younger, has a history of stealing and of making false accusations of abuse/discrimination in order to deflect from his own misdemeanours - this has been aimed at multiple adults over the years: teachers, step-parents and parents. Living with him has for some years been fraught with tension, due in part to us being on edge waiting for him to do something anti-social, and in part to our fear of enforcing any sort of boundaries because, for many years now, this has resulted in false accusations of physical abuse. He has never been abused, physically or otherwise.

Most recently, I was the one chosen to feel his wrath. It's never been me before. After several incidents at school regarding violence and their suspicion of him vaping/selling vapes on site (I've since found out he is/was, but they've not been able to catch him in the act) I removed his phone. I don't routinely check my teens phones as feel at 15/16 they deserve some privacy and we have solid restrictions in place on them, but he was extremely angry that I'd dared to take it to look as this is 'controlling' He responded by leaving the house at 11pm and going to his Dad's, where he then reported me to the police for an 'assault' that is entirely fabricated. I was arrested the morning after, held for 12 hours and interviewed under caution. I was then released on bail, with conditions that state I am not able to have any direct or indirect contact. This restriction seemed awful at first, but has possibly been a blessing in disguise.

As my username suggests, I am a teacher - well, still a student. I'm half way through SCITT. This investigation has meant I've not been allowed in any schools at all, my training is on hold. I've had to go on medication for anxiety and developed PTSD and agoraphobia. It's been horrendous. DS1 has been placed on a CiN plan whilst at his Dad's - our DC here have no SS involvement at all. It's now approaching my bail date, and DS1 has been messaging DS2 on snapchat. This means there's no trace of their conversation, but DS2 says that DS1 is miserable. He hates his life at his Dad's, he hates his SM and he desperately wants to come home. He claims that 'when' the police ask him if he wants to proceed with prosecution of me, he is going to decline (I'm well aware that's not how this works, but he genuinely believes he can choose whether to press charges or not: too much American TV/films). He has asked DS2 to ask DH and I if he can come home.

So, AIBU to feel like I have to say that no, this can't happen? My youngest DS has ASD too and has found this life change very difficult already. My DD is younger still and I am loathe to model acceptance of such coercive behaviour in the home. DS2 doen't deserve to be used as a go-between (I have not responded to/via DS2 at all and won't do so. I also wouldn't stop him talking to his brother though). My career may well be in tatters before it's even begun and I don't think I could ever relax and feel sure that I won't face this sort of 'punishment' from DS1 again. I've missed him terribly the last few weeks, but I've also slept so much better and I don't feel a constant anxiety when the phone rings of 'what now?' My SCITT have been fantastically supportive and will welcome me back to finish the course when the investigation is concluded with NFA, I would be terrified constantly that it would be ruined again. Not to mention my DH who has been an incredible support, but there's no denying he's found this extremely difficult. Without asking, I know he'll support my decision making either way, but I also know he would also be inclined to want to say no, though he'd be loathe to say it out loud. In short, I think we've all been through enough over the last decade.

But... I'm still DS1's Mum. The thought of him being miserable hurts deeply. I obviously want to make that go away. I just have no idea what to do. Am I being selfish?

Appreciate all viewpoints, but please don't be deliberately unkind, I am still very delicate. Thank you.

OP posts:
Theunamedcat · 14/04/2023 13:03

So he isnt considering saying it never happened he just wants to say I don't want to press charges?

Nope, he would need to accept he has lied tell people he has lied before I would entertain a conversation with him again

EL8888 · 14/04/2023 13:05

Ktime · 14/04/2023 12:20

YANBU. I would not have him back, he’s 16, not 6 and he made his choice.

Prioritise your younger DC and keep them safe.

If you have DS1 back, I suspect his behaviour will escalate and become violent because he will feel emboldened by his return into the fold.

@Ktime all this! He shouldn’t return, it’s not fair on his siblings or you. A message of clear consequences also needs to be put across. I do wonder if he may escalate if it all “goes away” and it’s not as if he can be trusted -especially for your working life

SummerDawn2000 · 14/04/2023 13:07

DS2 needs to stop contact. Hes 12 and this is too much.

after The bail give it a few to six months. You need time to heal and he needs to reflect. Obviously something is up.

parent and child relationships are often intense and angst ridden.

you Need to heal along with the younger DC. Put some boundaries in with your eldest. It doesn’t mean you can move on and still love him. You both just need some time to heal especially you. Essentially you’ve dealt with two abusive men in your life. Take your time to heal.

EarthSight · 14/04/2023 13:07

God that sounds awful OP. No you're not being unreasonable. Exactly how much abuse are you going to have to tolerate? He has a thing for trying to destroy reputations - he knows how damaging it is and that's why he does it. That comes from an aggressive, highly selfish, if not sadistic streak. The damage this could cause your career is really serious.

This has gone far beyond a child simply being naughty and doing what they want - he has actively tried to sabotage several people. As I think that some of those characteristics are innate (probably inherited from his father), I'd say there's a decent change he'll try this agin.

I have no clinical expertise or background, but what I've learnt from this type of person is that they never really learn. They will modify their behaviour for a while, lie low, but as soon as they feel comfortabe and close to someone again, they will go back to their old behaviour. It's in their nature. I feel sorry for the adults that will make contact with him in future.

SiouxsieSiouxStiletto · 14/04/2023 13:09

Theunamedcat · 14/04/2023 13:03

So he isnt considering saying it never happened he just wants to say I don't want to press charges?

Nope, he would need to accept he has lied tell people he has lied before I would entertain a conversation with him again

Yes exactly. He's not saying he lied. What he's saying is that you did it and he might be magnanimous and might not press charges.

He still wants all the benefits of being at home and the comfort but still wants to hold all the power. Family life and relationships don't work like that.

EarthSight · 14/04/2023 13:09

LuvSmallDogs · 14/04/2023 12:50

Bed, made, lie.

Once you're allowed to contact him again, I wouldn't go beyond brief cafe lunches or visits at grandparent's house, with a friend or family member along as witness for any allegations (If SS are still involved, they might get a SW to do this for a while anyway)- he will likely be resentful that you won't have him back from his dad's. Only if you feel like you want to, of course.

He could absolutely destroy the lives of you, your husband and other children - he has already made a good attempt at it.

This

@LuvSmallDogs

StopFeckingFaffing · 14/04/2023 13:09

Unclear if you are suggesting that you never wish to live with DS1 ever again or whether you are just thinking about the shorter term while SS/police involved etc

In the short term it seems like a no brainer for DS1 to remain at his Dad's house at least until the dust has settled and any threat of you being prosecuted has been fully dropped.

There is no rush to make any decisions about the longer term right now.

If DS1 is suitably apologetic and remorseful then you can start to rebuild your relationship step by step.

Soproudoflionesses · 14/04/2023 13:11

Absolutely yanbu op, how can you ever trust him again?

Namechangeteach · 14/04/2023 13:11

Endeavormorse · 14/04/2023 13:00

id be deleting Snapchat from DS2’s phone for a start.

See this is my gut reaction, but that seems very unfair for DS2, who hasn't done anything wrong and is very responsible with SM. He's a fundamentally good egg. I wouldn't want him to feel punished for something that isn't his fault. If we remove that, then would it move to instagram? Then if we removed that would DS1 find him on Whatsapp? DS2 doesn't deserve to have all his ways of communicating with his peers cut off, and if I do all that, do I become the 'controlling' mother I'm accused of being (by DS1)?

OP posts:
anon90210 · 14/04/2023 13:12

@Namechangeteach

Parent to an asd child here although he's younger. I have asd myself.

I wouldn't have him back in the house because of the following reasons.

  • He has to learn the impact of his accusations
  • He has a safe warm home at his dads he can live with
  • He has to learn that you need to trust him again and that relationship will take a while to come back if at all.

Autism is not an excuse for manipulative behaviour. Im surprised he's this manipulative with his autism with all the families I've supported (including my own) yes there has been fibs told but usually in much younger children who have some/little understanding of the world and not a teenager.

Telling lies is natural, adults do it too but to contact and then lie to the police, directly affecting your household, other children, dh and your career is something completely different to a black and white with grey filtered view of the world. Your son is well aware there's more to life than just him and is capable of understanding that concept.

Are you sure it's just autism? I'm not a psychiatrist but I would be looking at other conditions too or saying to his dad to have him looked at.

Filament · 14/04/2023 13:13

Normally I would be of the view that a parent would be wrong to turn their back on a child of this age, but not in this case. I have a teenager with ASD so I'm usually inclined to be sympathetic to one, but your son's behaviour is abhorrent. He seems to see making up abuse allegations as the solution to every difficulty no matter the harm that brings to others. It can't simply be reversed by him withdrawing the claims if you behave as he wants you to. If you take him back he'll feel he can do the same time next time you try to parent. I'd resign myself to another solution such as him living with his father or elsewhere.

itsmylife7 · 14/04/2023 13:14

You must leave him with his Father OP.

As much as you love him he's destroying your family with his lies. You're saving your other children a life of misery.

He's with his dad not living with strangers, let his dad deal with it.

He sounds very dangerous with his made up allegations, it'll be your husbands turn next...... he'll make an allegation against him and then husband will have to leave the family home.

There's nothing you can do to change him, all the love in the world will do nothing.

Don't beat yourself up about his behaviour, you can love your child but not always like them.

Your husband sounds amazing to have put up with this behaviour.

Namechangeteach · 14/04/2023 13:16

Theunamedcat · 14/04/2023 13:03

So he isnt considering saying it never happened he just wants to say I don't want to press charges?

Nope, he would need to accept he has lied tell people he has lied before I would entertain a conversation with him again

Don't be silly, admitting the truth would mean taking responsbility, and facing the very possible legal consequences for lying to the police. He won't do that. Ever.

The lies he tells become truth to him. The SW identified this too: even in the face of objective truth he believes his own story.

As far as I know, SS were trying to refer him to CAMHS for further assessment. We've tried that multiple times and the referrals are refused 'because he already has a diagnosis.' Hopefully if it comes from SS it will go through? I've begged SS for help before, on multiple occasions. It's never been available. He/we have not been in 'enough' need to meet thresholds.

OP posts:
Namechangeteach · 14/04/2023 13:18

anon90210 · 14/04/2023 13:12

@Namechangeteach

Parent to an asd child here although he's younger. I have asd myself.

I wouldn't have him back in the house because of the following reasons.

  • He has to learn the impact of his accusations
  • He has a safe warm home at his dads he can live with
  • He has to learn that you need to trust him again and that relationship will take a while to come back if at all.

Autism is not an excuse for manipulative behaviour. Im surprised he's this manipulative with his autism with all the families I've supported (including my own) yes there has been fibs told but usually in much younger children who have some/little understanding of the world and not a teenager.

Telling lies is natural, adults do it too but to contact and then lie to the police, directly affecting your household, other children, dh and your career is something completely different to a black and white with grey filtered view of the world. Your son is well aware there's more to life than just him and is capable of understanding that concept.

Are you sure it's just autism? I'm not a psychiatrist but I would be looking at other conditions too or saying to his dad to have him looked at.

No, I've not been sure it's just autism for a long, long time.

OP posts:
Qhaecciarr · 14/04/2023 13:18

I would not have him back. If you allow him back into your home after this, you're letting him know there are basically no boundaries or consequences for his behaviour and he has no reason not to escalate.

There is no easy answer here and likely no outcome that won't leave you feeling incredibly guilty, however you have to think of your other children and protect them. Your oldest son has clearly shown there are strong limits to how you can protect him, and besides which, he has another parent he has chosen to go to so it's not like he's been abandoned and is without care. He made his choices. Now you're making your choices.

I would also limit his contact with your other children and supervise it very carefully, as they will be susceptible to manipulation and your oldest DS will escalate it as much as he can. There's a line between 'controlling' and 'protective' and that's something to explain to your younger children.

Sometimes love looks like setting boundaries so you can raise people who will function in the real world. They may not like it, but it is what it is.

Namechangeteach · 14/04/2023 13:21

itsmylife7 · 14/04/2023 13:14

You must leave him with his Father OP.

As much as you love him he's destroying your family with his lies. You're saving your other children a life of misery.

He's with his dad not living with strangers, let his dad deal with it.

He sounds very dangerous with his made up allegations, it'll be your husbands turn next...... he'll make an allegation against him and then husband will have to leave the family home.

There's nothing you can do to change him, all the love in the world will do nothing.

Don't beat yourself up about his behaviour, you can love your child but not always like them.

Your husband sounds amazing to have put up with this behaviour.

It was my husband's turn first, actually. Then his stepmum (not the current one), she left his dad.

DH is a saint. I don't know how or why he's put up with it, except that he is an incredibly good man. A wonderful father. I am beyond lucky to have him. I adore him.

OP posts:
moreshitandnofuckingredemption · 14/04/2023 13:22

This is quite a minor point in the whole thing (which sounds very very difficult for you by the way 💐) but if DS1 had to use Instagram or WhatsApp to contact DS2, there would at least be an ongoing record of what was being said, which you obviously don't have with SnapChat

Nanny0gg · 14/04/2023 13:24

I was only DS1's age when I met his DF. He was 24. I realise now what I didn't then. I don't and won't have any contact with my ex. I can't, for the aforementioned reasons. I learnt, eventually, that it's not possible to communicate with him.

As well as your son's ND diagnosis, do you think he has some of his father's traits?

I do think you need to do what you can for him at a distance for the time being and prioritise the rest of the family

Do you have any contact with your Ex's partner? Do you know what they think?

Namechangeteach · 14/04/2023 13:25

moreshitandnofuckingredemption · 14/04/2023 13:22

This is quite a minor point in the whole thing (which sounds very very difficult for you by the way 💐) but if DS1 had to use Instagram or WhatsApp to contact DS2, there would at least be an ongoing record of what was being said, which you obviously don't have with SnapChat

Thank you. That's a good point. I'm going to discuss with DS2 and see how we can agree to limit this contact for the time being. He is 14 (not 12) and due to his hobby, well aware of the importance of adhering to bail conditions etc. As I said, he's a sweetheart, we'll work it out somehow.

Incidentally, before messaging DS2, DS1 tried to message my DM and my DF, who have both chosen not to respond for now in order to not be accused of any bail breach at all. We're so aware of how careful we need to be.

DH and I have DS1 blocked on all SM we have, as advised by the custody officer.

OP posts:
HoofWankingSpangleCunt · 14/04/2023 13:26

I’m so sorry you’ve also been going through this. I’ve experienced similar but on a much smaller scale.

I think you can absolutely refuse to have him back. Until he takes responsibility (ha!) you won’t be able to move forward. In an ideal world he’d be supported by SS to live at a residential school where he would receive therapies such as DBT as you’re right, this isn’t just autism.

It sounds like you’ve been battling for so many years. This is the proverbial straw I imagine.

Sending unmumsnetty hugs.

HoofWankingSpangleCunt · 14/04/2023 13:26

TYPO alert, please ignore the random also in first sentence.

AgrathaChristie · 14/04/2023 13:27

What an awful situation. Like others have said, you have to put your and your younger children’s welfare first. Your son is 16 and knows telling these lies could have awful consequences. He’s also showing his ability to manipulate by what he’s said to your DS2.
I think the idea of supported accommodation for him is excellent, maybe in time he can rebuild his relationship with you but on a visitor only basis. Awful though it sounds I would have a camera running if he should visit you.
And I’m sure “ hating being at his dad’s” just means there are rules in place he doesn’t like.
I hope this all works out ok for you.

KleineDracheKokosnuss · 14/04/2023 13:27

Do not let him back. He stays at his Dads or goes into supported accommodation.

if you let him back he will destroy you eventually. You matter and your other kids need protection.

And either get DS2 to take screenshots (you can use these in evidence) or block him on Snapchat.

Namechangeteach · 14/04/2023 13:28

Nanny0gg · 14/04/2023 13:24

I was only DS1's age when I met his DF. He was 24. I realise now what I didn't then. I don't and won't have any contact with my ex. I can't, for the aforementioned reasons. I learnt, eventually, that it's not possible to communicate with him.

As well as your son's ND diagnosis, do you think he has some of his father's traits?

I do think you need to do what you can for him at a distance for the time being and prioritise the rest of the family

Do you have any contact with your Ex's partner? Do you know what they think?

Yes.

No contact. Even indirect with ex would be problematic.

I cut off contact some time ago, once DS1 was old enough to make contact arrangements himself. I tried for his whole life to 'co-parent,' ask for back-up etc. It was always, always used as fodder for his manipulative games. It was damaging to DS1. I had to stop it.

OP posts:
diflasu · 14/04/2023 13:29

I don't see having him back is in his or your best interests - and definitely not in the younger children's.

You were previously worried about setting boundaries, telling and and setting expectations - I really can't see how it would work now if everyone is just waiting till he pulls another stunt.

He may be unhappy at his Dad's but he has a roof over his head and he may well be unhappy because there are more restrictions and boundaries.

I do think DS2 needs more protection from his brother - hard though that may be - at every least trying to explain contact is inappropriate till after the court case with your household as it could easily go wrong.

I'd probably also try in future to see him in public places with other people and witnesses if at all possible.

I do think you'l feel guilty whatever you do and saying no to having him back sadly sound like the least bad option. If he can't stay at dad long term then SS will need to come up with another plan for him.

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