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Original poster

Drag vs cultural misappropriation

217 replies

marahippo · 13/04/2023 21:44

I'd like to preface by saying I am all for LGBQT+ rights.

However I can't see why we tolerate men pretending to dress as women with over the top make up and clothing. These are not trans men, these are men who dress up with the sole purpose to mock and humiliate for entertainment. They talk about "fannies", grab their artificial boobs, dress like no woman would really dress and make a mockery/objectify women as sexual objects.

Even the names are designed to offending- I give you a few examples:
Cheryl Hole
A'Whora
Ginger Minj

Why is this acceptable?
The days of dressing up and pretending to be a different race/culture for entertainment is now unacceptable. Why is "sexual misappropriation" different?

OP posts:
Naunet · 14/04/2023 11:43

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 11:40

No, they would not have been. Not when you take into account the class divisions of voting rights. Voting rights were not just by sex, but mostly by class. Drag queens were not the right class of men to have the vote before any women had it too. Your generalisation was just plain wrong from a historical standpoint.

That’s the last I will say on this. I’m sure you’ll get the last word in. You seem the type.

Show quote history

You literally have no evidence to make such a claim. Some people say drag started with Shakespearean actors - very working class huh?!
Maybe you should stop historically stereotyping gay men as all from poor working class backgrounds.

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 11:46

Naunet · 14/04/2023 11:36

Oh yes, being gay is a well known working class occupation! 🤣 fucking hell. You’ve got no evidence to make a claim that no drag queen could vote, let it go.

Show quote history

You’re just showing your ignorance here.

Drag queens were paid stage performers at the low end of the theatre scene. They did not earn enough money to meet the property requirements to attain the vote.

Drag queens were not all gay, nor were all gay men drag queens.

Plenty of gay men had the vote, but that would be due to their class meaning they met the property requirements which required personal wealth far out of the reach of any performing drag Queen. Therefore these gay men, would not be drag queens performing in theatres but have highly paid professional occupations or inherited wealth.

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 11:50

Naunet · 14/04/2023 11:43

You literally have no evidence to make such a claim. Some people say drag started with Shakespearean actors - very working class huh?!
Maybe you should stop historically stereotyping gay men as all from poor working class backgrounds.

Show quote history

Yes, actors in Shakespeare’s time were working class.
Im not stereotyping gay men as working class. It’s you who has decided to stereotype drag queens as gay men and gay men as drag queens.

CountZacular · 14/04/2023 12:16

UnderPressureLikeACustomerInALushStore · 14/04/2023 04:49

Woman face 😂😂

Whatever next. No wonder people take the piss out of us.

Women being offended that men are taking the piss out us is the reason men take the piss out of us?

pinksheetss · 14/04/2023 12:38

@Naunet if you have to change the narrative of my post to try make a point then very clear you have no substance to your response :) but go off if you just.

Also the people who just say 'you are wrong' like why bother responding if you won't give accurate evidence to back it up.

Guarantee 90% of the people complaining have never seen a show.

If you really think it's offensive to women then shows more on the stereotypes placed on women you go by than anything else.

Festivfrenzy · 14/04/2023 12:52

All this debate about the origins of drag or when black people, women, gays, whoever could first vote is irrelevant.
Dressing up as people to take the piss out of them in stereotyped ways is not accceptable. Blackface is not acceptable and we all agree on that I think??? Dressing up as a nazi is not acceptable - whilst I know not everyone agrees, I do think most people understand why. Men dressing up as hideous representations of women for their and others amusement is equally not appropriate - if you disagree maybe you're unaware that men as a group have historically and still do belittle, oppress, rape, and murder women and girls in their millions and billions.
I bet some black people feel golliwogs are harmless. Doesn't change facts of what's right and wrong- these things contribute to oppression of societal groups.
Any kind of womanface whether for so called comedy or for sexual thrills is horrible and shameful.
Lily Savage was binned off in the end cos even whatshisface decided it wasn't fun anymore.
Give up - it's a dying breed!

pinksheetss · 14/04/2023 14:05

@Festivfrenzy
Are you completely oblivious to the hypocrisy in your post there?
You question the 'stereotype' ways being taken the piss out of and then go on to say

'if you disagree maybe you're unaware that men as a group have historically and still do belittle, oppress, rape, and murder women and girls in their millions and billions. '

Are all men like this? Do women not do any of this?

nothingcomestonothing · 14/04/2023 14:28

'if you disagree maybe you're unaware that men as a group have historically and still do belittle, oppress, rape, and murder women and girls in their millions and billions. '

Are all men like this? Do women not do any of this?

You literally quoted 'men as a group'. And then said NAMALT. No one said all men do this, but men as a group absolutely do this.

Waits for 'but what about Myra Hindley/Rose West?' Hmm

CountZacular · 14/04/2023 14:30

pinksheetss · 14/04/2023 14:05

@Festivfrenzy
Are you completely oblivious to the hypocrisy in your post there?
You question the 'stereotype' ways being taken the piss out of and then go on to say

'if you disagree maybe you're unaware that men as a group have historically and still do belittle, oppress, rape, and murder women and girls in their millions and billions. '

Are all men like this? Do women not do any of this?

Men ‘as a group’ clearly means the class of men, not all men. And you know it too. The vast majority of crimes mentioned about having been done by men. It’s not hypocrisy to say that.

Women as individuals might do that but as a class, they do not rape and murder women in their millions and billions, no.

Did all white people own slaves or mock black people through blackface? No. Do we know it’s a crime mostly white people were responsible for? Yes. Is it okay for those who didn’t own slaves to now go ahead and perform blackface?

Mangogirl12 · 14/04/2023 14:46

pinksheetss · 14/04/2023 07:45

I've still not seen a valid argument on how it's offensive, other than one comment about being called 'fishy' and I don't know about others but if that offends you then that sounds like a you problem (and probably something you should go to the doctors about as it seems to hit a nerve so maybe something you are affected by?)

It's so utterly ridiculous to compare to blackface.
Drag queens wear make up, wigs and dresses and put on a performance - do only women have ownership of this type of dress?

No wonder there's a problem with younger kids being pushed to being trans these days. A large number of small minded people are trying to tell young kids they can't express themselves by wearing make up or dresses because it's a 'women only' thing. Therefore saying those who like to express themselves this way must feel like a woman?

I'm sorry but if seeing someone in a wig and make up truly offends you then you need to give yourself a shake

Have you not read the comments that outline very clearly, how deeply offensive and misogynistic drag is, and exactly how it is like blackface?!?? Have you not read the thread? There has not been one single argument that can defend drag that holds up. Please read the full thread before commenting.

Mangogirl12 · 14/04/2023 14:52

TheHoover · 14/04/2023 09:04

FFS only on mumsnet will you get called misogynistic for not hating drag.

I think it is deeply ignorant, insulting and plain desperate to equate drag with blackface. You are effectively saying that women in society today are as oppressed, marginalised and mistreated as black people have been in the UK, Europe and Western countries throughout the ages. You are saying that drag artists are oppressors performing to other oppressors for the purpose of perpetuating an unequal and oppressive society. Have that view if you like - that drag is just an outpost of TRA (Nb it isn’t) but equating it to the treatment of black people throughout the ages (and indeed today - don’t dare to think racism has gone away) is utterly ridiculous. Yes women are yet equal in terms of pay and frequently on the wrong end of violence at the hands of men but that’s got literally fuck all to do with drag performance art - it’s not the misogynistic patriarchy or evil violent thugs dragging up or watching drag, it is - as it has always been - a harmless, slightly seedy, hedonistic underclass.

It shows you really haven’t got the slightest clue about why blackface is so problematic. Wind your necks in or risk being labelled at best culturally ignorant and at worst racist. I am embarrassed for you.

You are effectively saying that women in society today are as oppressed, marginalised and mistreated as black people have been in the UK, Europe and Western countries throughout the ages.

Er, YES!! Women ARE as marginalised, oppressed and mistreated as black people have been and continue to be. What is your point, other than you are historically ignorant, and proving our point?

daretodenim · 14/04/2023 16:02

It’s not punching down on women or a minority- it’s subverting the restrictions of gender.

How on earth is men dressing as women and parodying them "subverting the restrictions of gender"? What gender restrictions to men face that they break by making fun of women? And what gender restrictions do women face that are subverted by men making fun of them?

And if they're not parodying women or making fun of them, please explain what they're doing. Because they're certainly nor "celebrating womanhood".

Drag comes from the gay (male) community. A certain part of it. And "jokes" about how disgusting women's bodily functions are were a part of that world. This was at a point in time where marital rape didn't exist. Not because women weren't raped by their husbands, but because women were viewed as the sexual property of their husbands and therefore they were perpetually sexually available. The point: different times.

daretodenim · 14/04/2023 16:15

You are effectively saying that women in society today are as oppressed, marginalised and mistreated as black people have been in the UK, Europe and Western countries throughout the ages.

Er, YES!! Women ARE as marginalised, oppressed and mistreated as black people have been and continue to be. What is your point, other than you are historically ignorant, and proving our point?

I disagree. Women are marginalised and mistreated etc but the comparison to black people isn't a good one. And it's not helpful. It sidetracks the discussion plus it splits the discussion (as happened on this thread) into "white feminism" and privilege. Furthermore, if we say that men cannot understand what it is to experience the world as a woman, then there's no possible way that white women (assuming most people here are) can say they know what it's like to face racist oppression in order to compare it to misogyny.

There are enough reasons why drag is a parody of women by men and why that is not ok, that it doesn't need to be compared to any group's oppression. It stands by itself. No need to "piggy back" on the mistreatment of black people.

DojaPhat · 14/04/2023 19:04

If white feminism could be harnessed as a source of energy it could single-handedly make Shell, BP et al redundant within the hour.

Notimeforaname · 14/04/2023 19:16

I love these threads, "womanface" always makes me laugh 😂

midgemadgemodge · 14/04/2023 19:26

Yip standing up for women's rights is so prissy isn't it, no one wants to be associated with anyone who cares for those old hags

Hear yourselves

mauveiscurious · 14/04/2023 19:36

daretodenim · 14/04/2023 16:15

You are effectively saying that women in society today are as oppressed, marginalised and mistreated as black people have been in the UK, Europe and Western countries throughout the ages.

Er, YES!! Women ARE as marginalised, oppressed and mistreated as black people have been and continue to be. What is your point, other than you are historically ignorant, and proving our point?

I disagree. Women are marginalised and mistreated etc but the comparison to black people isn't a good one. And it's not helpful. It sidetracks the discussion plus it splits the discussion (as happened on this thread) into "white feminism" and privilege. Furthermore, if we say that men cannot understand what it is to experience the world as a woman, then there's no possible way that white women (assuming most people here are) can say they know what it's like to face racist oppression in order to compare it to misogyny.

There are enough reasons why drag is a parody of women by men and why that is not ok, that it doesn't need to be compared to any group's oppression. It stands by itself. No need to "piggy back" on the mistreatment of black people.

I have to say the "women face" terminology feels uncomfortable and inappropriate

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 14/04/2023 19:41

mauveiscurious · 14/04/2023 19:36

I have to say the "women face" terminology feels uncomfortable and inappropriate

Show quote history

Drag these days feels ‘uncomfortable’ and ‘inappropriate’.

Blossomed · 14/04/2023 19:56

DojaPhat · 14/04/2023 19:04

If white feminism could be harnessed as a source of energy it could single-handedly make Shell, BP et al redundant within the hour.

Struggling to understand where skin colour comes into this? Also struggle to understand whenever anyone talks about feminism like it’s a negative thing. Surely equality between sexes is a good thing?

SpudleyLass · 14/04/2023 20:12

I switched Rupaul's horror show on ONCE, heard the phrase "snatch game" and turned it off again.

Yes, his kind of drag is sexist and gross and I steer clear of anybody I know who claims to like it. These are not friends of women.

It saddens me the lengths some people will go to dismiss women's upset with what is an increasingly hostile attitude towards the female sex.

Its ok for women and girls to not like this shit and to say so . Its ok for women and girls to stand up for ourselves.

DojaPhat · 14/04/2023 20:14

@Blossomed I agree with your latter two points - feminism is not a negative thing and shouldn't be considered as such, and yes equality between the sexes is a good thing. Wrt the first point in short a cursory read of the thread (and generally this kind of thread whenever it pops up on mumsnet) always goes the same direction. The majority of women on mumsnet are white and therefore their experiences of navigating the world as a white woman is vastly different to that of e.g. a black woman which is why skin colour comes into it. I'm a feminist but since uni (when I started doing the reading, thinking more critically about these issues etc), I've always known that white women as a class aren't allies. As a side, the forum is great for all manner of things but when this type of thread comes around every 3 business days it serves as a good reminder Smile

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 14/04/2023 20:19

SpudleyLass · 14/04/2023 20:12

I switched Rupaul's horror show on ONCE, heard the phrase "snatch game" and turned it off again.

Yes, his kind of drag is sexist and gross and I steer clear of anybody I know who claims to like it. These are not friends of women.

It saddens me the lengths some people will go to dismiss women's upset with what is an increasingly hostile attitude towards the female sex.

Its ok for women and girls to not like this shit and to say so . Its ok for women and girls to stand up for ourselves.

Abso-fucking-lutely.

And to people annoyed by it - get used to it.

Magentaa · 14/04/2023 20:31

@SpudleyLass your right women and girls don’t have to like it and that’s ok but it’s also ok for other woman and girls to like it. It doesn’t mean it needs to be cancelled. Personal note ‘snatch game’ is always the best episode!!

Blossomed · 14/04/2023 20:41

DojaPhat · 14/04/2023 20:14

@Blossomed I agree with your latter two points - feminism is not a negative thing and shouldn't be considered as such, and yes equality between the sexes is a good thing. Wrt the first point in short a cursory read of the thread (and generally this kind of thread whenever it pops up on mumsnet) always goes the same direction. The majority of women on mumsnet are white and therefore their experiences of navigating the world as a white woman is vastly different to that of e.g. a black woman which is why skin colour comes into it. I'm a feminist but since uni (when I started doing the reading, thinking more critically about these issues etc), I've always known that white women as a class aren't allies. As a side, the forum is great for all manner of things but when this type of thread comes around every 3 business days it serves as a good reminder Smile

I hear what you are saying. However, I guess the experiences of women vary in many ways. I’d hope we could be supportive and respective of different lived experiences/circumstances, but also come together simply as women supporting one another. It’s sad to think that this might not be the case.

Blossomed · 14/04/2023 20:42

*respectful