Drag vs cultural misappropriation

[marahippo]

I'd like to preface by saying I am all for LGBQT+ rights.

However I can't see why we tolerate men pretending to dress as women with over the top make up and clothing. These are not trans men, these are men who dress up with the sole purpose to mock and humiliate for entertainment. They talk about "fannies", grab their artificial boobs, dress like no woman would really dress and make a mockery/objectify women as sexual objects.

Even the names are designed to offending- I give you a few examples:
Cheryl Hole
A'Whora
Ginger Minj

Why is this acceptable?
The days of dressing up and pretending to be a different race/culture for entertainment is now unacceptable. Why is "sexual misappropriation" different?

An opinion written in a coursework essay by a law student carries as much weight as any opinion on here. I found it hard going and almost bizarre like when she claims drag tells women how to dress, how to act and the practice of drag is how society imposes gender stereotypes on women. What a load of bollocks.

Posted too soon - meant to say please show that this was the majority of the women in drag audiences. Were women even allowed to watch drag back then? Wasn’t it in men’s spaces??

Yes when all men got the votes, most women did as well on the same day in 1918. And you’ve just confirmed that my “claim” is historically factual.

Two thirds of women is, in fact, most women.

You missed my edit - where is the evidence that these women were the audience members? Also why are you so focused on the vote when it was just ONE of the many ways men oppressed us, or is your argument that they didn’t?

Yes women were in the audience and in the shows.

The first drag shows were usually gay men dressing as drag queens and lesbians dressing as drag kings.

It was quite the rage in the roaring 20s amongst the posh, rich, fashionable bright young things. (All women of property who had the vote).

I suppose I’m focussed on it because I corrected your historical error to set the record straight on the thread and instead of going oops, my mistake L3 thanks for clarifying, you’ve decided to argue about the vote and now about the audience members with me?

The 20s is not when drag started!!

It’s not punching down on women or a minority- it’s subverting the restrictions of gender.

Like fuck it subverts. Quite the opposite... drag uses the oldest trick in the book designed to humiliate women: reduce us to stereotypical caricatures then scorn us for not laughing at The Joke when the joke is us. Drag mocks our higher-pitched voices, our mannerisms, even the smell of our genitals. How nice to be able to take off those costume breasts; I sometimes wish I could also take off these intrinsic parts of my body's sex, the sex that targets me for violence, rape, dismissal, gaslighting, and lower pay. How very amusing it all is.

I won't compare drag to blackface, that's insulting to the hard work done by black civil rights activists with no help from (or outright sabotage by) white feminism. But neither will I be complicit in misogyny and the very best misogyny has traditionally come straight out of the gay male community, the birthplace of drag.

Nope, you just took my comment and decided it “implied” something I didn’t mean, and now you’re saying that was an error. I guess you know what I meant better than I do though?!
Seems like you want to derail from the absolute fact that men oppressed women.

I dislike the parody and humiliation of women. And whilst I wouldn't go to see drag I don't think it should be banned, it's adult entertainment.

I don't like adult entertainment being near kids though so fundamentally disagree with drag story hour or it being in school.

I think of more inclusive ways to teach children. An old person, a lesbian, a gay man reading stories would be better but no...a parody of a woman apparently is the right answer

You were questioning me on whether there women in the audience during the 1918-1920 period when all men had the vote whilst most women had the vote.

If you want to go back to 19th century and earlier, yes women were in the audience as well then, but prior to 1918 the drag queens would not have had the vote either. So pre1918, your scenario is historically not factual at all. Post 1928 everyone has the vote, so your scenario is still historically not factual at all.

So your original scenario of a drag Queen taking off their wig and being able to vote unlike women could, cannot be applied at all pre1918 or post 1928.

This just left the period between 1918 and 1928, and your scenario omits the fact that while all drag queens could take off their wigs and go vote, so could most women. So it’s still not historically accurate. But then you’ve been trying to argue that the 2/3rd women who could vote would not be the women in the audience during this 1918-1928 period where all drag queens could vote, but a minority of women could not- which is frankly pretty desperate grasping at straws.

Just admit your example was a bad one and not historically accurate.

Typo in first sentence should read 1918-1928 time period not 1918-1920

Nope, you restricted it to that period, not me. Please provide evidence that no drag queen ever had the vote before 1918.

Ok though, let’s go with my example of men being able to vote when women couldn’t as bad, let’s instead say a drag queen could still take off his wig go home and legally rape his wife if he wanted to. Does that make it better?

TheHoover · Today 09:32
“Btw drag existed in bygone ages but women’s activists were far more bothered about getting the vote..”

You said in response:
Yes, because that was yet another way in which men oppressed us. Luckily drag queens could take off their wigs, stop calling themselves she, and go cast their vote though.

I don’t think I’ve inferred anything from this. Your statement above is historically not factual at all. You didn’t have to choose to dig in and compound your error.

Im not denying men have oppressed women (that was a nasty thing to allege), I was correcting your history error. I think it’s important to get historical facts straight when it comes to oppression.

Except it’s not incorrect because they could take off their wigs and go and vote (when many women couldn’t which I didn’t even mention in what you quoted) 😂

I didn’t restrict it to that time period.
I proved you 100% wrong pre1918
I proved you 100% wrong post 1928
I proved you 66%, so most likely wrong for a very short interlude from 1918-1928.

You haven’t then chosen to start sea lioning about it with silly requests for evidence of the identity, sex and social status of all audience members and all drag performers. You know this is an impossible task that would likely prove you wrong anyway, but think you can get away with pretending there’s no evidence when more than enough has been posted already to prove the rule. If there was some exceptional drag show where all of the queens were rich property owners and all the audience unmarried working class women, that doesn’t make you right btw.

Yes, your example was bad. Let’s just move on from it.

Yes a drag Queen until 1996 could take off his wig and go legally rape his wife or male partner.

60% of men had the vote pre 1918 (since 1884) - prove that none were drag queens and then you’ve proved your point.

In fact you still haven’t because that wasn’t even what I originally said, you’ve just made your own interpretation of what I said, I didn’t even mention women’s right to vote, as you showed yourself by quoting me, but seeing as many women still couldn’t vote after 1918, but all men could my point is factually accurate. A man could take off his wig and go vote. That’s a fact, sorry.

Actually I think you need to prove all drag queens pre 1918 had the vote to prove your point as it was a sweeping generalisation. This would be highly unlikely btw, as drag show stage performances was a working class occupation done in various low heel night clubs.

So even though most men could vote, none of them could possibly be drag queens?! You’re being ridiculous. This is what I said:

Yes, because that was yet another way in which men oppressed us. Luckily drag queens could take off their wigs, stop calling themselves she, and go cast their vote though

So did men restrict women from voting?! Yes, that’s a historical fact.
Could a drag queen remove his wig and go vote - yes. Does the likelihood of him being able to do that depend on the time period? Yes, but seeing as most men had the vote before any women, good chance he could have,

If you have a problem with that, or want to twist it to try and make it mean something else, you go for it, I’d rather stick to addressing the main point of this thread.

You quoted and referenced Hoover’s womens right to vote comment regarding how women were focussed on fighting for the right to vote and said
“Yes, because that [no vote] was yet another way in which men oppressed us. Luckily drag queens could take off their wigs, stop calling themselves she, and go cast their vote though.”

You referenced women’s right to vote. Most women could vote after 1918.
What an odd way to word a sentence though if you meant something completely different then.

How are drag queens “lucky” to take off a wig, stop calling themselves a she and go cast their vote when a supramajority of women could also cast their votes too? The drag Queen could keep on the wig, call himself she and most probably still cast a vote 🤷‍♀️

How else is a post about how men oppressed us, with an example of voting to be interpreted if not in the context of women’s voting rights?

Pre1918, It would be as likely for a coal miner to have the right to vote as it would a drag Queen given that both were exclusively working class occupations. So not a good chance at all, more like an infinitesimal chance.

Id rather stick to the main point of the thread too. We could have if you’d been more open to learning a bit of history.

Like I already said, most men could vote before women could, and some of those men will have been drag queens. Do you want to stop boring on about this now?

Oh yes, being gay is a well known working class occupation! 🤣 fucking hell. You’ve got no evidence to make a claim that no drag queen could vote, let it go.

No, they would not have been. Not when you take into account the class divisions of voting rights. Voting rights were not just by sex, but mostly by class. Drag queens were not the right class of men to have the vote before any women had it too. Your generalisation was just plain wrong from a historical standpoint.

That’s the last I will say on this. I’m sure you’ll get the last word in. You seem the type.