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Original poster

Drag vs cultural misappropriation

217 replies

marahippo · 13/04/2023 21:44

I'd like to preface by saying I am all for LGBQT+ rights.

However I can't see why we tolerate men pretending to dress as women with over the top make up and clothing. These are not trans men, these are men who dress up with the sole purpose to mock and humiliate for entertainment. They talk about "fannies", grab their artificial boobs, dress like no woman would really dress and make a mockery/objectify women as sexual objects.

Even the names are designed to offending- I give you a few examples:
Cheryl Hole
A'Whora
Ginger Minj

Why is this acceptable?
The days of dressing up and pretending to be a different race/culture for entertainment is now unacceptable. Why is "sexual misappropriation" different?

OP posts:
PixiePirate · 14/04/2023 06:46

Completely agree with you OP. I find it offensive.

applespearsbears · 14/04/2023 06:49

YNBU I hate it and find it totally offensive, can't believe it's still acceptable- women still being the punch bag of men when everything else is taboo

MrsMikeDrop · 14/04/2023 07:00

UnderPressureLikeACustomerInALushStore · 14/04/2023 04:49

Woman face 😂😂

Whatever next. No wonder people take the piss out of us.

Exactly 😳

Onehappymam · 14/04/2023 07:06

@Mangogirl12 sums it up exactly.

Things we used to enjoy on the TV only a few years ago we now look back in horror at. I used to love drag shows, but now they make me uncomfortable.

Festivfrenzy · 14/04/2023 07:13

daretodenim · 14/04/2023 06:42

I think that many women are so used to living with underlying threat from men (as in walking home alone at night we'd be more concerned about a lone man on the street than a lone woman), and in general being paid less, being treated differently by doctors etc that unless something happens personally to shove in our face that we're being treated differently because we're female, we don't think we are. It's normal. So the idea that men are prancing around in "woman face" seems both ridiculous and offensive when compared with blackface.

And it's true that misogyny/sexism and racism are not the same.

But how about I tell you there's a place where a Group A are paid less than Group B, that Group A are not believed as much about their pain levels or medical symptoms as Group B, that two people a week from Group A are killed by people in Group B that they were in a relationship with, that Group A are frequently expected to take on more household tasks than Group B (including ones that benefit Group B), and that if members of Group A are raped by Group B then the Group B'er will almost definitely get away with it as rape prosecution levels are at 1.4% and that from tween years onwards, children in Group A are subject to degrading sexual comments from Group B. Does that sound like two equal groups? And then we're told that members of Group B dressing up as caricatured versions of Group A and mimicking them and mocking their bodies is "fun".

Woman face and blackface aren't the same. But that doesn't make woman face ok either.

If the men who do drag are real supporters of women, why do they find the smell of our genitals disgusting and something to joke about? Why do they find names that imply our sexual objectification as fun? How exactly are they doing anything to make women's place in society stronger, while they're demeaning us?

I think there are some men with great make up skills. I'm sure some they've been through terrible experiences too. But I've also been through terrible experiences- and they're almost all because I'm female. We're not supposed to refer to people as chavs or dress up like we come from a poor area of town (I came from one btw) because that's seen as unacceptable, yet drag is somehow protected from criticism.

We're not supposed to "punch down", unless it's a man doing it to a woman. Then it's funny.

So good to spell it out like this!!
OP you are exactly right. It's woman face, it's offensive, it's inappropriate, it's wrong.
Blackface was doubtless sometimes funny to black people, just like drag is sometimes funny to women, just like any inappropriate joke might have a sliver of wit or a pun that makes you chuckle.
But that doesn't stop the whole genre being negative about women. It's woman-shaming and you're ignorant if you don't realise it. Loads of men can see that nowadays.
It's the same with panto dames- equally sadly though. I used to love some drag shows, and I still do love some pantomimes. Some panto dames are witty and hilarious while others resort to "she's so ugly, fat" hoiking up the massive fake breasts etc.
I've been to sell out pantos sat with my daughter while the audience screams with laughter at "she's so ugly" jokes. My toes were curling and just felt full of shame imagining her little innocent mind trying to process this when she'd rightly lived her life knowing that it's wrong to call anyone fat or ugly and certainly not to laugh if anyone else says this.
I get the sadness that comes with knowing that this tradition, like drag, is not going to survive forever, but the whole culture of women as second class citizens who deserve to do all the housework/childcare/have a little slap if they step out of line/shag whichever man wants them/marry whoever their father decides etc etc etc is reinforced in loads of different ways and this type of big flashy on a stage signal that it's ok/fun/appropriate to laugh at women is wrong and has to go.
It's not right to laugh at women who are fat/do all the housework/complain about their load/have vaginas/babies/lose babies etc.
How does anyone manage to tell themselves it's harmless? It's pervasive culture.

There can be comedy and likeable qualities in all kinds of bad stuff - some nazis loved animals and classical music! Doesn't change the overall sentiment though.
Drag is wrong, blackface is wrong, trans women is mostly wrong as that's mostly womanface (excl a tiny number with genuine dysphoria) - remember Hilaria Baldwin Alec's wife who lied and told everyone she was Spanish and how that went down? Exactly the same.

gogohmm · 14/04/2023 07:28

@StaunchMomma so true

I find some comedians offensive, shall we ban them too?

It's an entertainment form that you can avoid if it's not your thing - it's hardly like it's compulsory to watch Rupauls drag race, and apart from panto you aren't likely to accidentally come across drag.

I don't mind it but I prefer the more musical acts rather than comedy as I find it too crude, ditto some comedians

pinksheetss · 14/04/2023 07:45

I've still not seen a valid argument on how it's offensive, other than one comment about being called 'fishy' and I don't know about others but if that offends you then that sounds like a you problem (and probably something you should go to the doctors about as it seems to hit a nerve so maybe something you are affected by?)

It's so utterly ridiculous to compare to blackface.
Drag queens wear make up, wigs and dresses and put on a performance - do only women have ownership of this type of dress?

No wonder there's a problem with younger kids being pushed to being trans these days. A large number of small minded people are trying to tell young kids they can't express themselves by wearing make up or dresses because it's a 'women only' thing. Therefore saying those who like to express themselves this way must feel like a woman?

I'm sorry but if seeing someone in a wig and make up truly offends you then you need to give yourself a shake

midgemadgemodge · 14/04/2023 07:52

Davie Bowie and various others put on dresses and make up as part of their performances/ way of living yet are not "drag"

Perhaps a drag enthusiast could explain what drag therefore is

It might help you understand it's not the bloody clothes that make it drag

SmugglersHaunt · 14/04/2023 08:02

I think the more recent crop of drag queens, like the ones you name (and others on RuPaul's Drag Race etc.), are much more misogynistic than the old-school drag queens like Dave Lynn, Miss Jason etc - who were just ropey male pub singers with a frock on.

Now it's all about mocking women, grabbing their 'p*ssy' etc. It's just pathetic. What's the difference between blackface and womanface? You won't find a coherent answer from anyone.

But it's just women, so who cares?

nothingcomestonothing · 14/04/2023 08:02

Blackface and other offensive representations of oppressed groups are offensive to men

Another dumb comment. Who are you speaking for? Blackface presumably isn't offensive to Black people who aren't men in your uninformed mind it seems.

I didn't say it's only offensive to men, I said it's only a problem because its offensive to men. Things which matter to men, matter. Things which only matter to women, don't.

If you want to be racist just own it, no need to pretend it's all about men in dresses.

How is it racist to compare a dominant group demeaning an oppressed group, to a dominant group demeaning an oppressed group? How is blackface different to womanface?

I know racists are dim but much of this thread is even beyond that. How you'll ever make any headway re your fuss about Drag when you can't even stick to the subject at hand without throwing in diversions to trip yourselves up with, God alone knows. If indeed it is really about Drag, which I doubt.

'stupid women shut up making a fuss about something I don't care about, you're all probably right wing bigots anyway'. Fixed it for you.

DisquietintheRanks · 14/04/2023 08:03

missmollygreen · 13/04/2023 21:49

YABU and ridiculous

This. Make up and high heels are not my culture.

KimberleyClark · 14/04/2023 08:04

Somebodiesmother · 13/04/2023 23:45

What would the actual crime be, and what would count as womanface?

Show quote history

Are we going to have police busting pantomime performances and dragging away the dame? And what about Prince Charming? Isn’t that man face?

QueenoftheNimbleFlyingCat · 14/04/2023 08:11

I'm GC but I don't mind drag, it's rooted in gay culture and most of the gay men I know who do drag adore women. There are always some that are offensive and talk about fish and are disgusting but that's like all entertainment.

I find the drag queen story hour bizarre though, it's adult entertainment and should stay that way.

Skybluepinky · 14/04/2023 08:16

U obviously have nothing better to do than spout rubbish!

LakeTiticaca · 14/04/2023 08:27

Nobody is forced to watch drag show. Its not compulsory. Just because someone is offended shouldn't mean nobody else can have fun.

Go clutch yer pearls elsewhere and stop being a fun sponge 😉

midgemadgemodge · 14/04/2023 08:38

Would you dare say the same to someone offended by a black faced morris dancer ?

No

You don't give a shit that it's insulting and mocking and in sone cases utterly inappropriate for children at whom it's directed it's just a laugh to you

Just a laugh - that age old excuse for bullying and dehumanising behaviour

nothingcomestonothing · 14/04/2023 08:45

LakeTiticaca · 14/04/2023 08:27

Nobody is forced to watch drag show. Its not compulsory. Just because someone is offended shouldn't mean nobody else can have fun.

Go clutch yer pearls elsewhere and stop being a fun sponge 😉

Change the word 'drag' to the word 'blackface', and read it again.

DeeCeeCherry · 14/04/2023 08:47

nothingcomestonothing
No - I'll fix it for you.

I'm a Black Woman who sees thru White Feminism laced with racism. It's nothing new - this 'yeah but Black people' thing.

The Blackface correlation: I explained it. & related it to the White Male privilege you don't really want to tackle so hey, let's throw something else in the mix. Read it. Or don't.

You will protect privilege at all costs. Even Blackface being thrown in the mix as a diversion is related somewhere on thread solely to how non-White men feel. It's not as if all non-White people are male..

Meanwhile Drag Queens do what they do, and now have opposers neatly labelled as right wing bigots. Solution? talk talk talk, and faffing about Blackface. Good luck with all that.

Naunet · 14/04/2023 08:47

You'll find drag queens are the biggest supporters of women

😂😂😂 oh yeah, they’ve done so much for women haven't they?! Such an absolute blessing, however could we cope without men taking the time to mock and parody our existence! Dear god, the dick pandering is ridiculous…

mauveiscurious · 14/04/2023 08:51

I think on MN we aren't offended by a panto dame, however

www.thepinknews.com/2019/10/31/drag-queen-blair-back-abortion-halloween-christian-new-york/

If this is not fetish I'm not sure what else you could call it. Creepy appropriation of women perhaps

Naunet · 14/04/2023 08:52

Drag queens wear make up, wigs and dresses and put on a performance - do only women have ownership of this type of dress?

What? It’s not about what they wear, it’s the fact that they wear it whilst pretending to be women and mocking us. Why is that so hard to understand? Do you get why some people are offended at Little Britain these days?

bigbabycooker · 14/04/2023 09:00

Yes, I agree with you. I mean, people, including some black people (Sir Lenny Henry) went along with the black and white minstrel show, thinking "well, it's a bit racist, but it is harmless". Now it is regarded as totally abhorrent.

I think that drag should go the same way, tbh. It's a character sketch of a stereotype of womanhood that is damaging

bigbabycooker · 14/04/2023 09:03

(I also think panto dame should go too.)

TheHoover · 14/04/2023 09:04

FFS only on mumsnet will you get called misogynistic for not hating drag.

I think it is deeply ignorant, insulting and plain desperate to equate drag with blackface. You are effectively saying that women in society today are as oppressed, marginalised and mistreated as black people have been in the UK, Europe and Western countries throughout the ages. You are saying that drag artists are oppressors performing to other oppressors for the purpose of perpetuating an unequal and oppressive society. Have that view if you like - that drag is just an outpost of TRA (Nb it isn’t) but equating it to the treatment of black people throughout the ages (and indeed today - don’t dare to think racism has gone away) is utterly ridiculous. Yes women are yet equal in terms of pay and frequently on the wrong end of violence at the hands of men but that’s got literally fuck all to do with drag performance art - it’s not the misogynistic patriarchy or evil violent thugs dragging up or watching drag, it is - as it has always been - a harmless, slightly seedy, hedonistic underclass.

It shows you really haven’t got the slightest clue about why blackface is so problematic. Wind your necks in or risk being labelled at best culturally ignorant and at worst racist. I am embarrassed for you.

Willyoujustbequiet · 14/04/2023 09:09

Magentaa · 13/04/2023 23:32

@Willyoujustbequiet 🤦🏼‍♀️ It’s really not!! You all should be embarrassed to think the two are the same. Do you see black people laughing along to black face 🤔 i think not but you see hundreds of women laughing along WITH drag queens. You’re a bunch on snowflakes who need to get a grip!!

Actually back in the day there were some black people who laughed along with programmes such as the black and white minstrels.

I used to find drag funny just as many other women did who now don't. Now we know better and can see it for what it is.

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