Page 6 | Drag vs cultural misappropriation

marahippo · 2023-04-13T20:44:51+00:00

I'd like to preface by saying I am all for LGBQT+ rights. However I can't see why we tolerate men pretending to dress as women with over the top make up and clothing. These are not trans men, these are men who dress up with the sole purpose to mock and humiliate for entertainment. They talk about "fannies", grab their artificial boobs, dress like no woman would really dress and make a mockery/objectify women as sexual objects. Even the names are designed to offending- I give you a few examples: Cheryl Hole A'Whora Ginger Minj Why is this acceptable? The days of dressing up and pretending to be a different race/culture for entertainment is now unacceptable. Why is "sexual misappropriation" different?

Naunet · 14/04/2023 09:48

TheHoover · 14/04/2023 09:47

@Naunet erm you are still showing no understanding of why blackface is a problem if you think my argument is problematic because I am mentioning historic racism.

Either history matters or it doesn’t. If it matters when keeping blackface off our screens, it should matter in the same way for women. Or history doesn’t matter and so both drag and blackface are ok today. Which is it?

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 14/04/2023 09:49

TheHoover · 14/04/2023 09:47

@Naunet erm you are still showing no understanding of why blackface is a problem if you think my argument is problematic because I am mentioning historic racism.

And historic sexism………………………?

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 09:49

Naunet · 14/04/2023 09:44

No, they still had it before most women. Only specific women were first allowed the vote, the same as it had previously been for men.
By the way, black men got the vote before women.

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My point is that in the U.K. there was never a point in history where all men could vote but no women could vote as your post seemed to imply.

Black men of property always had a vote in the U.K. Our voting rights were always based on sex and class, no one has ever been barred from the vote due to their race in the U.K.

All races of working class men didn’t get the vote before women.

If you want to talk about a different country’s voting rights, we can do so, but the U.K. is the default on a U.K. website.

jellyfrizz · 14/04/2023 09:49

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 09:40

I don’t agree. Disney Princesses embed gender stereotypes by glorifying and romanticising them, drag queens and kings make fun of gender stereotypes which tears them down and works to break us out of the boxes we are put in due to our sex.

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Old style princesses maybe but even this has progressed - Merida, Moana, Mulan, Pocahontas

If you want to break gender stereotypes, then you break gender stereotypes by wearing heels and make up as a man (or whatever), you don't pile them on thick while saying look at me, I'm a lady.

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 14/04/2023 09:50

If you want to break gender stereotypes, then you break gender stereotypes by wearing heels and make up as a man (or whatever), you don't pile them on thick while saying look at me, I'm a lady.

Incredible that this needs explaining, but here we are…. 😑

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 14/04/2023 09:52

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 09:49

My point is that in the U.K. there was never a point in history where all men could vote but no women could vote as your post seemed to imply.

Black men of property always had a vote in the U.K. Our voting rights were always based on sex and class, no one has ever been barred from the vote due to their race in the U.K.

All races of working class men didn’t get the vote before women.

If you want to talk about a different country’s voting rights, we can do so, but the U.K. is the default on a U.K. website.

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Look, so what?

The oppression of women is far wider than the UK.

Naunet · 14/04/2023 09:52

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 09:49

My point is that in the U.K. there was never a point in history where all men could vote but no women could vote as your post seemed to imply.

Black men of property always had a vote in the U.K. Our voting rights were always based on sex and class, no one has ever been barred from the vote due to their race in the U.K.

All races of working class men didn’t get the vote before women.

If you want to talk about a different country’s voting rights, we can do so, but the U.K. is the default on a U.K. website.

Show quote history

My point is that in the U.K. there was never a point in history where all men could vote but no women could vote as your post seemed to imply

Not implying that at all, simply highlighting that this was only one way in which women were oppressed by men. It’s simply a fact.

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 09:53

jellyfrizz · 14/04/2023 09:49

Old style princesses maybe but even this has progressed - Merida, Moana, Mulan, Pocahontas

If you want to break gender stereotypes, then you break gender stereotypes by wearing heels and make up as a man (or whatever), you don't pile them on thick while saying look at me, I'm a lady.

Show quote history

I don’t see much progression on the new style Disney princesses and princes.

I don’t think it’s right to dictate how one breaks gender stereotypes. I see nothing wrong with doing it through comedy and fashion acts. It’s obvious that Drag Queens and Kings are not trying to pass as a real woman/man, that’s why it’s got added drama and is more outrageous than what a real woman/man would wear. It’s part of the comedy factor and a costume that pokes fun at gender stereotypes for dress and makeup.

TheHoover · 14/04/2023 09:55

So please do equate how drag is performed by oppressors of women, for oppressors of women.

And then equate where drag sits on the scale of issues that perpetuate current inequities in society.

blackface in modern day is harking back to a society when incomparable levels of oppression existed in society either purposefully or ignorantly. Deeply disrespectful. Drag today has fuck all to do with all the examples you spouted upthread of women oppression.

if you genuinely believe it is on an equal footing I would keep your mouth shut expressing such views IRL because the only people who will agree with you are mumsnetters and racism deniers (not necessarily mutually exclusive).

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 14/04/2023 09:55

I don’t think it’s right to dictate how one breaks gender stereotypes. I see nothing wrong with doing it through comedy and fashion acts. It’s obvious that Drag Queens and Kings are not trying to pass as a real woman/man, that’s why it’s got added drama and is more outrageous than what a real woman/man would wear. It’s part of the comedy factor and a costume that pokes fun at gender stereotypes for dress and makeup.

But this is exactly how blackface was justified and legitimised. These exact arguments.

jellyfrizz · 14/04/2023 09:57

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 09:53

I don’t see much progression on the new style Disney princesses and princes.

I don’t think it’s right to dictate how one breaks gender stereotypes. I see nothing wrong with doing it through comedy and fashion acts. It’s obvious that Drag Queens and Kings are not trying to pass as a real woman/man, that’s why it’s got added drama and is more outrageous than what a real woman/man would wear. It’s part of the comedy factor and a costume that pokes fun at gender stereotypes for dress and makeup.

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The point is that it is not breaking gender stereotypes if you are dressing like that when playing a female character.

Festivfrenzy · 14/04/2023 09:59

Naunet · 14/04/2023 09:28

I think it is deeply ignorant, insulting and plain desperate to equate drag with blackface. You are effectively saying that women in society today are as oppressed, marginalised and mistreated as black people have been in the UK, Europe and Western countries throughout the ages.

What the fuck is this nonsense? So we can only compare women today to how black people were treated historically? Why is that the rule then? Why not compare how women were treated historically too? We were property, could be legally raped and beaten by our husbands, weren’t allowed to act on stage so men played our roles, couldn’t have credit, could be sectioned for having an orgasm, could be legally restricted to certain jobs, couldn’t be in politics, couldn’t be on a jury…the list goes on.
Fuck off with minimising women’s oppression throughout history.

Spot on 👏

Naunet · 14/04/2023 10:00

TheHoover · 14/04/2023 09:55

So please do equate how drag is performed by oppressors of women, for oppressors of women.

And then equate where drag sits on the scale of issues that perpetuate current inequities in society.

blackface in modern day is harking back to a society when incomparable levels of oppression existed in society either purposefully or ignorantly. Deeply disrespectful. Drag today has fuck all to do with all the examples you spouted upthread of women oppression.

if you genuinely believe it is on an equal footing I would keep your mouth shut expressing such views IRL because the only people who will agree with you are mumsnetters and racism deniers (not necessarily mutually exclusive).

Because they’re men.

So your answer is black people were oppressed “worse” in this country than women ever were? Ok, go for it, how so? Where’s the line for what makes oppression Really Bad or Not That Bad like women’s oppression apparently was?
And by the way, no need to tell someone to shut their mouth just because you’ve had your argument questioned. Back in the day that sort of language would have been enough to get you sectioned if you’re male owner wanted…

TheHoover · 14/04/2023 10:02

your answer is black people were oppressed “worse” in this country than women ever were? Ok, go for it, how so? Where’s the line for what makes oppression Really Bad or Not That Bad like women’s oppression apparently was?

oh wow. Yes that is my answer. I’m backing out now. Some people there is just no point arguing with.

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 10:04

Naunet · 14/04/2023 09:52

My point is that in the U.K. there was never a point in history where all men could vote but no women could vote as your post seemed to imply

Not implying that at all, simply highlighting that this was only one way in which women were oppressed by men. It’s simply a fact.

Show quote history

Except that your scenario that a drag Queen could just take off their wig and go vote while [all of] the women in the audience could not is not representative of historical facts.

Before 1918, Drag queens were all working class/non property owners, and so they’d take off their wig and just like the women in the audience would also have no vote.

Between 1918 and 1928 when all men had the vote but not all women had the vote, the drag Queen would have the vote but so would most of his female audience members.

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 10:05

jellyfrizz · 14/04/2023 09:57

The point is that it is not breaking gender stereotypes if you are dressing like that when playing a female character.

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I disagree. Because it is obviously a man underneath the costume.

Naunet · 14/04/2023 10:06

TheHoover · 14/04/2023 10:02

your answer is black people were oppressed “worse” in this country than women ever were? Ok, go for it, how so? Where’s the line for what makes oppression Really Bad or Not That Bad like women’s oppression apparently was?

oh wow. Yes that is my answer. I’m backing out now. Some people there is just no point arguing with.

🙄

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 14/04/2023 10:06

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 10:05

I disagree. Because it is obviously a man underneath the costume.

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How is fake boobs subverting gender stereotypes?

They’re pretending to be - and taking the piss out of - women.

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 10:07

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 14/04/2023 09:55

I don’t think it’s right to dictate how one breaks gender stereotypes. I see nothing wrong with doing it through comedy and fashion acts. It’s obvious that Drag Queens and Kings are not trying to pass as a real woman/man, that’s why it’s got added drama and is more outrageous than what a real woman/man would wear. It’s part of the comedy factor and a costume that pokes fun at gender stereotypes for dress and makeup.

But this is exactly how blackface was justified and legitimised. These exact arguments.

No it’s not at all “how blackface was justified and legitimised” that is a spectacular piece of historic ignorance and lack of ability to reason.

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 14/04/2023 10:08

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 10:07

No it’s not at all “how blackface was justified and legitimised” that is a spectacular piece of historic ignorance and lack of ability to reason.

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Blackface literally was comedy for white people.

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 10:10

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 14/04/2023 10:06

How is fake boobs subverting gender stereotypes?

They’re pretending to be - and taking the piss out of - women.

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Erm, you do know that gender stereotypes are social constructs right? That a costume reflecting the biology of the sexes, ie boobs or fake penis, is not and cannot ever be a statement regarding gender stereotypes one way or another?

They’re not pretending to be women because their characters are purposely too outrageous to be like any real woman ever. 🙄

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 10:12

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 14/04/2023 10:08

Blackface literally was comedy for white people.

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That’s your point? You are saying that because blackface was comedy for white people and Drag can also be comedic, then drag is just like blackface?

This is called a false equivalency.

rumpsteak · 14/04/2023 10:13

https://scholarship.kentlaw.iit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3209&context=cklawreview

jellyfrizz · 14/04/2023 10:17

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 10:10

Erm, you do know that gender stereotypes are social constructs right? That a costume reflecting the biology of the sexes, ie boobs or fake penis, is not and cannot ever be a statement regarding gender stereotypes one way or another?

They’re not pretending to be women because their characters are purposely too outrageous to be like any real woman ever. 🙄

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So the fake boobs are not about gender stereotypes AND also not about pretending to be women?!

Naunet · 14/04/2023 10:19

L3ThirtySeven · 14/04/2023 10:04

Except that your scenario that a drag Queen could just take off their wig and go vote while [all of] the women in the audience could not is not representative of historical facts.

Before 1918, Drag queens were all working class/non property owners, and so they’d take off their wig and just like the women in the audience would also have no vote.

Between 1918 and 1928 when all men had the vote but not all women had the vote, the drag Queen would have the vote but so would most of his female audience members.

Show quote history

Between 1918 and 1928 when all men had the vote but not all women had the vote, the drag Queen would have the vote but so would most of his female audience members

So you’re claiming when all men had the vote, so did MOST women?

In 1918 the Representation of the People Act was passed which allowed women over the age of 30 who met a property qualification to vote. Although 8.5 million women met this criteria, it was only about two-thirds of the total population of women in the UK

https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/transformingsociety/electionsvoting/womenvote/overview/thevote/

The vote is pretty irrelevant to this discussion anyway, as it’s simply one example in a long list of ways that men oppressed women.