Do these fathers actually want children?

[Daftasyoulike]

I see a lot of posts on MN about absent Fathers who don't pay maintenance, don't make any effort to see their children, etc. Is it unreasonable to ask whether these men ever actually wanted kids in the first place, or was it a case of accidental pregnancies, which were allowed to continue in the hope that 'he will come around to the idea once the baby arrives', and then when the relationship breaks up, you find that he never really cared about having the kids in the first place, so doesn't feel he should contribute emotionally or financially to the raising of his children?

Agree about happy accidents, but tbh, sometimes men are perfectly on board with these accidents too.

But also

When women choose not to have a child, then the child either don't exist (termination) or are adopted to people who want them. Child may have emotional issues.

When a man decides he doesn't want a child, the child is just fatherless and the mother has to scrimp to get by, often. Mother is the sole carer. Child may have emotional issues.

So it's not a direct comparison. And it's more than just a minor inconvenience to the father, as I think someone else mentioned: any financial help or involvement is for the benefit of the child, not to punish him.

No man is suffering from paying for a child they made. Child maintenance is a whopping £7 per week for fathers who claim any benefits regardless of how much they may earn from work and whether they have any living costs. Same price to maintain your child (who needs childcare, food, clothes, activities) as adopting a WWF panda so a bargain for them if anything.

In my experience a large proportion of men, even the ones who are happily married or in long-term relationships, are ambivalent at best about having children but agree to become fathers because the woman they love wants to be a mother and he wants to make her happy.

MN has taught me that many women are so desperate to become mothers in the knowledge that their body clocks are ticking that they overlook & ignore all manner of red flags to get pregnant by totally irresponsible & unreliable men.

@hoven but that's the point I'm making..it's not exceptional. Very few people, women included really know what parenting is like but it seems like men are far more able to just decide they don't want to do it anymore. As for not "having" to be the main parent..it's hard enough getting unwilling men to pay for their kids, let alone actually parent. How do you suppose I make my ex do 50/50? I'd bloody love him too, but it was never something he even raised. He just assumed that he could fuck off with ow and I'd do everything.

There is a smorgasbord of reasons why feckless men abandon their children - laziness, immaturity, selfishness etc. Really the question should be, how and why do they get away with it?

We have different views on marriage. I believe the mistake has been made once you choose to have a child with someone you are not married to. These couples are more likely to break up when the children are young than married couples.

Having a child is one of the most important things you can do, why not strive to have the best circumstances beforehand such as a man who has committed to you through marriage and an actual good person?

It took me a long time to find my husband who is an excellent father. I broke up with boyfriend who I was with for years due to a lack of commitment or a lack of confidence in their abilities to be a father. It wasn't easy but I had to make these sacrifices for my child

This. The behaviour of some men is fucking awful and unacceptable, i.e. just fucking off and paying bare minimum maintenance after being “fully onboard” with having kids.

However, I do think women need to take some responsibility for who they decide to have kids with, because unfortunately the signs are often (not always of course) there, but chosen to be ignored as women want a baby no matter what.

I see it a lot on mumsnet to be honest, if a woman says she’s pregnant after a short fling, posters piling on to say what a shit the father is for not being thrilled, but how fantastic the OP is. Whilst the father is clearly a dick for not using condoms if he didn’t want kids, I think it’s also pretty shitty behaviour from the woman in question and most of the time it’s obvious from how thrilled she is that it wasn’t simply a “contraception failure” 🙄.

Also agree with this. Of course some men still fuck off after marriage but IME marrying someone is usually a far greater indicator that the man plans on sticking it out.

In both of my marriages, both my first and my second husband made big noises about wanting babies. My second husband actually stressed me a bit with his longing and need to have children, only to crown himself shittiest father ever.

Most men go along with what their wives want, someone wrote up thread. That’s too simple. And it’s not an accurate statement. I think certain men identify having kids as a measure of their success. Many men are living a diorama of a life, one that looks good inside a frame on their desk at work or as a favourite image on their camera roll. But in reality they just can’t be the dependable, loving, compassionate partner in a marriage/father in a family they need society to believe they are. And the bottom line is, shitty husbands aren’t ‘normal’. They’ve got huge issues which they hide well initially. Most of them have abusive tendencies and abusers are champions of deceit. They fool everyone, but not all of the time.

What I notice, as a lone parent, is how many of my female friends have gotten it right with their partners. Not perfect, but right. I’m not sure where I went wrong. I really assume most men are not like my two husbands.

My first husband isn’t even bad. He’s a great guy. But as a partner, he was all work. Both of my husbands were very emotionally neglected as children. Alcoholism in the family. When you’re a child, if both your parents can’t display emotional intelligence or operate from an emotionally intelligent place, you’re pretty much fucked (unless you have other good adults around you who can fill that void).

@hoven where did you get the idea I wasn't married?

It means quite often the father feels dissociated especially in cases of unplanned pregnancy. That somehow it is not their place to decide the way forward and therefore they become a bit of a passenger and less involved in parenthood

YANBU
Being a parent is seen almost as a fun lifestyle choice one day and a burden the next.

I think the children from couples where the parents aren't married are at greatest risk of having an absent father before very long. Shot gun weddings in the US were a thing because the aim was to keep parents together..not that I'm saying we should go down that route but I'm sure that was the idea. No idea how we can make couples stay together these days. We do have to help out those who find themselves trapped in financial insecurity when raising their children alone. Whether that's men or women with custody.

I was married.. second husband, 4 kids, (his) he met someone else & he was gone. Youngest don't remember him & he's dead now. (Nothing to do with me!) ;-)

Also mothers do not have to have main custody of their child and they can go to the courts for a different custody/visitation split.** Again it is a matter of choice

@hoven

You should really stop contributing to this thread if you are just going to continue say things that have no factual basis. You cannot take anyone to court to make them see their child. What on earth made you think this, and then write it on a forum as if it was true?

'I think the children from couples where the parents aren't married are at greatest risk of having an absent father before very long.'

Or, kids whose parents are married are at greatest risk of being stuck with an arsehole dad?

If you are not happy with the split social services can get involved

Actually a lot of women think they need to conform by having babies or because all.their friends are.Or they simply want a baby and dont care that much about the man.They expect financial support.It would be more honest of them to go to a sperm bank or ask a male friend.They sometimes try to turn a casual nothing into marriage and family life which in fact a lot of people hate.Too scared to say it.Takes a village etc.....

In the case of my dad, the reality wasn't as easy or fun as he had hoped. He wanted kids then when he got them, he was jealous that they were the most important thing for my mum, and he was pissed off with his lack of freedom. So he fucked off, which was lucky for me as I was raised by the most amazing, kick-ass single mum of all.

@hoven social services do not involve themselves in residency splits and noone can use the courts to REDUCE their parenting load and force the other to step up. At best, they can grant more residency to a parent that has less, but that's the opposite of what this thread is about. And you haven't answered my question...why did you think I wasn't married? I was. Didn't stop him running off for an easier life.

I think in some cases the dad takes out his disagreements with the mum partly in his attitude to their children.

Some will tell anybody with ears that their children are " their world" These type also take you through what a Physco' their x was/ is. At best they take the child to their mum's where nanny parents for the day. At worst they look upon their children as bargaining chips/ somebody to spend money on for unneeded and unwanted crap... I could go on, makes it bad for the genuinely caring dads trying to do their best...

I think a lot of men see having children as an occupational hazard of being married.

I can only speak for myself and my ex was very enthusiastic about the pregnancy. No money and next to no involvement afterwards

I agree. If up to men, the human race would die out!

Hoven what country are you posting from? Surely you know that child maintenance is not a court ordered process because it’s out of the court’s jurisdiction.
It’s a separate entity.

And it’s CAFCASS not Social Services that deals with active child arrangement proceedings in family court. SS can be involved under very specific circumstances. They’re not the cavalry coming over the hill, sorting out unfair splits.
Your questions are irrelevant and not that helpful. You don’t have the understanding required to present your questions (which I don’t believe you’re asking for answers and insight but to goad posters).

I agree.

Men want sex. (Most) Women want babies. When their desires align, procreation occurs, genes are passed on and the species continues.