Dog attack: American Bulleys AGAIN (trigger warning)

[CrossBun]

(Frequent name changer, not trying to be controversial)

6 year old mauled to unconsciousness in Manchester by a pack of 5 dogs reportedly American Bully’s. Although they’re still investigating.

How many more times? How long is this going to go on for before someone does something? It seems like absolute insanity. I struggle to make sense of this as in how we can tolerate this as a civilised society. It’s so preventable.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/girl-6-mauled-pack-dogs-26570151

Ban ban ban

I used to breed and show Rottweilers. Beautiful dogs but in the wrong hands a weapon.
just like these evil bull terriers. There is not a “driving licence” required to own one of these monsters.
i hate those vile dogs
always the same - a bull terrier kills

They aren’t evil. Whether you believe in evil as a concept or not, animals are incapable of it. That type of emotional language is so unhelpful in these types of cases. They are no more ‘evil’ than a group of lionesses who take down a weak antelope and eat it raw, or a cat who stalks and kills a defenceless little mouse. They have no concept of moral behaviour.

And I'm happy to keep my dogs under control and away from other people, including children.

But as I'm sure you've had dogs running up to you unwanted and jumping up, pawing and undesirable interaction, I've had children (and adults) approaching my dogs (especially one because she's small and 'cute') grabbing at them, their leads, ears and tails or feeding them sweets and crisps.

And as I'm sure there's been owners who have got nasty when asked to get their dog away, there's been people who have been nasty when I've asked that my dogs be left alone.

We’ve had dogs run up but dc don’t tend to interact with dogs they don’t know given the choice

So maybe leads would help the unwelcome running up

@Maverickess I'm vegan and don't think we should be breeding dogs at all. As I said earlier, there are hundreds of thousands of dogs in the UK that need a home, and all my dogs have been rescued. I'd vote for a ban on breeding immediately.

I've had 2 labs, a boxer X mastiff and now I have a staffy x. I've learnt so much about the banned dog list since owning him. I don't know what he is crossed with, and I don't care to know. He's given regular exercise, he is socialised with other dogs, cats and kids, just like all my other dogs were, and he is so lovely. My last lab was reactive to cats, but my current staffy x, who has been mistreated by humans, just wants to rub himself against them without being clawed in the eyes.

He might eat me one day, and I might make the headlines, although I reckon I'm more likely to die by car crash, cancer or even suicide than I am to be attacked by my staffy cross.

@Teder "It was one dog that apparently ‘turned’.

Dogs don't just "turn". They give many, many signs of discomfort that owners ignore. Allowing a child to continue interacting with the dog when it has shown these signs will possibly result in the dog snapping or biting. Signs such as whale eyes, yawning, lip licking, looking away, stiff tail wag, physically moving away. There's so many and it is the owners job to know when dogs are uncomfortable and address that by eg moving the dog to somewhere quiet where it won't be molested by a child.

With the incident in the OP, what can be done. As noted the type of people with dogs like this aren't likely to obey laws around muzzling or follow breed specific legislation. What can be done? I think a few things.

1. Make it compulsory for vets to check for microchip every time they see an animal. If unchipped, the dog is chipped on the spot, it's not optional. This would go a long way to chipping all dogs - there's regularly dogs that aren't chipped, which is against the law where I am but is common place in reality.
2. Enforce dogs on leads in public spaces with hefty fines for those that are not - exception being off lead on designated dog area egdog park or dog beach
3. Enforce lead less than 2m long laws - don't allow dogs to wander willy nilly on the pretense they are on a lead and under effective control - again hefty fines if not
4. Laws to restrict the number of dogs owned to maximum 2, regardless of breed - fines for owning more than two unless you are a registered breeder.
5. Compulsory breeder registration, which includes breeds breeder is breeding, and tracking of dogs sold (currently the law in Australia and I'm very curious to see stats on what dogs end up abandoned and needing rehoming) - sale of puppies requiring registered breeder ID and penalties exceeding breeder registration fee if "breeder" is unregistered.
6. Wandering dogs - if point 1 happens, you'll know who to fine
7. If you own a dog that attacks a person or other animal - dog is PTS and owners fined a substantial amount ie 10k which is paid to the victim. This is recovered even if people are on benefits - it is garnished from wages or benefit payments
8. If you have a pack of dogs, as in this instance, that attacks a person or animal, the fine is 10k per dog and is paid to the victim/s. The only way to stop people acquiring dangerous dogs is to make it financially impossible for them to do so.
9. The owners in point 7 are banned from ever owning dogs again and this is monitored. There would need to be some way to prevent them claiming someone else "owned" the dog if it lived with them 24/7.

Compulsory breeder registration, breeder identification for life of dog, dog identification will enable tracking of all dogs and tracing issues back to who has bred those dogs eg if dogs are being deliberately bred from aggressive bloodlines.

Dog owners - there's compulsory registration in Australia through local councils. People again avoid that. Should be large fines for unregistered dogs.

The only thing that makes people pay attention is money. Make it financially painful to do the wrong thing. That is the only way to stop it as the current system of it's required but nothing happens if you don't do it eg register, microchip etc isn't working. Having a dog is a choice. Following the rules around dog ownership shouldn't be.

I have never had anyone tell me that my dog was overstepping some line. Did have a kid accuse her of biting him... was bollocks. His mum even told him off.

My dog was snoozing in a cafe, and a young kid came up to her with a toy and went to bash her on the head for no reason... kid's mum approached in time and stopped what could have been an aweful incident for all concerned.
Another time, she was running towards me in our local park... totally normal. A kid came over and did a flying kick at her head as she ran past. Had his foot connected, it would have done serious damage to my dog.

I don't know about this particular incident. I do know that 99.9% of the "cute" videos of children and animals on social media are videos of disasters waiting to happen.

So you were a breeder who perpetuated that shit?

Well I think that gives you a lot of insight into stopping this. Instead of slagging off a breed of dog, you could tell other humans about what humans do when breeding dogs.

As I said, I agree that treatment is massively important in how a dog behaves, but, I really don't think you can discount breeding completely because some dogs are bred for (or were in times gone) for specific jobs.
My spaniel wasn't bred specifically to go out flushing rabbits or grouse out for me to shoot at, but that doesn't stop the generations of breeding those traits into her breed, from emerging.

And I agree, but probably for different reasons, about breeding dogs. There's enough already that need decent owners without breeding more. Both of mine are rehomed. As was my last, now departed dog.

I've known some amazing dogs that were or are considered of a dangerous breed, GSD's, Rotties, Staffies and they were owned and trained by responsible people who treated them properly, and some were rescued.
But my point is, they are big, strong dogs who were bred in part for their protective traits or aggressive tendancy originally, and bad treatment will increase those traits and their size and strength makes them more dangerous when that happens - it's exactly why they're attractive to people who want to use them as a status symbol, and imo why they're so dangerous.

Ban them and any dogs bred historically for fighting

This would ban all war breeds as well as guardian breeds. Sight hounds should also be out as they're bred to chase and take down prey. Wolf hounds, deer hounds etc also bred to take down large adversaries. Small prey driven terriers eg ratters, possibly ok to keep but could still kill a baby.

Or do you go down the bite force route and ban all dogs with a bite force in excess of x psi on the basis that bite force would be an indicator of the damage a dog will do if it bites.

www.rosenfeldinjurylawyers.com/strongest-dog-bite-strength.html#:~:text=Labrador%20Retriever%20(230%20PSI)

@MarshaBradyo

I am in agreement with you over leads, taking my dogs out would be far less stressful if other people would use them too!
Unfortunately I don't have any control over other dog owners that don't, in the same way you don't have control over other children/parents who allow things like @XenoBitch describes.

I'm responsible for my own dog ownership, not all dog ownership. Because if I were and had the power to change things, they'd be very different!

Make dog owners pass IQ tests. Pretty sure those who’d want to have an American Bully XL would score too low to succeed.

I take your point about the talking to strangers etc, no, we shouldn't have to teach children not to talk to strangers, but bad people exist so we do it to keep them safe.
Same could apply to dogs. I think the basics are a good idea.

I do think some people on that thread though were thinking that it was a good way for bad owners to continue being bad owners by putting the onus on the people being approached/jumped on/barked at to recognise dog behaviour rather than the owner to control the dog. And I could see that pov.

I have to agree with this. My dog is a border terrier and she will rag a toy back and forward, it's not something we've taught her at all. Her Mum and dad are both used to rat on a farm and our friend had a rat issue in his barn on his farms, I jokingly said maybe he should borrow her for a day, he took me up on it and she caught 28 rats in 2 days. It's not something you can train out of her, she finds a rat, kills it. Drops it, moves on.

Now we lend her to a few farmers and they're all very happy but her genetics are the reason!

@Maverickess no, no. Sorry if you've misunderstood what I've said, and I agree with that - dogs are working, we bred them for that. So, we have so many breeds, originating from wolves, who have all been used for different purposes - sight hounds, retrievers blah blah.

I'm talking about the average domesticated dog now though. Unless it's a collie, or a wanker's hunting dog, we generally don't use them in the field they were originally used for?

You are totally right though. People make bad dogs.

My staffie X hasn't been in any fights.

@Saz12
I muzzle my lurcher when she's being walked on the street because she goes rabbiting sometimes and I don't trust she won't grab a cat or a small dog if it ran up to us offleash and I've had two people ask me why my dog is muzzled, and that if it needs to be muzzled it shouldn't be walked in public. The attitude towards muzzles is bizarre and I think alot of dog owners are scared of people thinking they have a problem demon dog if it's seen wearing a muzzle. I have four dogs and I support non toy dogs wearing a muzzle in the street or if offleash off your property though, would even be happy to muzzle my spaniel because you never know when the dog is bred for more than pure companionship.

It’s not Pitbulls killing children anymore so their ban must have worked a little. Apologies for being rude . I’m just so fed up of these dangerous dog breeds.

There's no evidence that society is worsening. You just sound like a misanthropic moaner.

There was far more violence in schools in the past - fighting was just tolerated, bullying was rife, parents and teachers could hit kids.

There are always some people who are violent, but general tolerance of that is reducing, meaning it is reported more.

Stronger sentences would be a good start. Prosecute as if the person themselves had done the attack.

I really really do not like dogs, but I actually think this rise in dog attacks has more to do with the idiots who bought dogs during lockdown that they have never properly trained, than it has to do with the dogs themselves.

There were idiots who should never be allowed to own a dog before lockdown too, but there just seem to be more of that sort of owner around now.

I'm not sure if banning a particular breed would make much of a difference as there are many breeds who can be very dangerous if with an irresponsible owner.

Sounds good to me. Ban based on that.

Any dog that was originally bred for fighting should be banned.

Any dog that was originally bred for guarding should be licensed and breeding/ownership heavily controlled.

Breed genetics are important.

The dog owners should be charged with whatever their dogs have done. Say, Manslaughter or GBH. That should sort the problem.

100% agree