Is Shamima Begum a victim or a criminal?

[ShamimaBegu]

Just listened to the podcasts about Shamima Begum. How can Shamima Begum not be viewed as a victim of grooming and sex trafficking? How on earth would a 15 year old got to Syria without adults making it happen?
She was married off and became pregnant on multiple occasions. She surely is as much a victim as a criminal?

You’re missing the point. If two ten year olds were held accountable for their actions despite being children, why are we being invited to have different standards for a 15 year old? It’s completely inconsistent.

The BBC sounds podcast unravels the very complex situation Shamima is facing and what happened to her in a objective way. Other interviews which are the basis of the mass negativity towards her happened when she had just come out of the caliphate she was completely indoctrinated and had only conversed with isis members, she didn't understand the impact of her words and she definitely couldn't process logical thought at that time. The podcast covers this point.

She was sexually and violently abused, she was almost starved, lived with some incredibly violent and controlling people who took away her freedom. She gave birth alone, her children all died. She is now regarded a traitor by isis and is in danger of harm, considered a traitor to Britain. All of this from making a terrible choice as a child.

Another fantastic interview is the most recent bad people podcast interview with Josh Baker who words this far better than I can.

But I fear the issue goes far deeper than Shamima, the UK broke basic human rights by stripping citizenship. Even the judge who considered the case said that there is substantial evidence to support sexual trafficking and abuse. The government also want to get rid of the European Court of human rights, effectively ending any form of checks on our government. This is a current example of the safety net of human rights being pulled underneath us. Would you trust the government to uphold our rights? Absolutely not.

Worrying times.

I'm pretty sure the killers of Jakes Bulger got a trial.

Still missing the point. 🙄

Jamie burger's killers don't apply because they did not have dual citizenship. Shamima has dual citizenship, therefore the government argue they are not denying her human rights as she can go to Bangladesh. A place she has no family, never been and would most certainly kill her.

Plenty of white men went to join ISIS and haven't been able to come home again.

Well why don't you spell out your point then?

One of James Bulger's killers has been effectively rehabilitated back into normal society. The other appears to be a life-long criminal, in and out of prison. 50% rehabilitation after such a hideous crime isn't a bad result in terms of our ability to act like a civilised society - those two boys did not come from happy, secure families. Shamima should be brought back here, assessed, put on trial, serve her sentence and rehabilitated if possible, kept in prison if not. We shouldn't be dumping our problems on Syria or Bangladesh.

I have. Twice.

Just to note, Shamima joined a terrorist organisation. She does need to be put on trial and held to account for her actions. But using the loop hole of dual citizenship is a slippery slope which undermines the basic human rights and principles we need to protect.

Definitely a victim. Maybe also an adult criminal.

But she was 15 when she left so victim at that point. Since becoming an adult what has she actually done? Lived in poverty under a horrific regime and lost children due to malnutrition. There is no evidence that she did more than this, more I find it disturbing that there are ‘rumours’ she was active in ISIS which are disputed by people willing to go on record. Who started these rumours?

Whatever she is, she is (should be) Britain's problem and not dealt with via trial by Daily Mail but by the proper criminal processes and punished that way.

This with bells on. Let’s have a court investigate if she did more to support the regime than be a wife.

I also dislike the hypocrisy with which she has been subject. We have hundreds of known ISIS fighters in the UK. What to do was debated years ago in parliament- eg https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-03-18/debates/42259394-C90B-4670-BFC9-A5F91518A5FF/ISISMembersReturningToTheUK
She should be judged by the same standards as everyone else. Not by cherry picked snippets of information from an interview when she was very obviously traumatised.

I know someone who has worked in refugee camps. They are dangerous places, murders are common. This is not the place to conduct an interview that decides someone’s future.

Shamima Begum 15 year left Britain because freind
Sharmeena Begum convinced her.
Was pregnant 5 times . 3 live birth all children dead by the time she was 19 .

.Sharmeena Begum isis member still active .

I think there might be mix up with the names

Both. And she can stay where she is thanks. Anyone claiming that she would have been treated different had she been white should google Sally-Anne Jones.

Both

Plus I feel she may have other difficulties perhaps as watching interviews and reading how she was ‘recruited’ I feel she was vulnerable maybe due to something pre-existing

She is playing the victim, at the end of the day I live very close to her area and have even dealt with a “tutor” in college that was trying to recruit for ISIS in our class.

How do you think she paid to get there? It wasn’t as simple as speaking to ISIS and saying I will come and they get you out there… it was a process that took months which involved her stealing money from her parents (as per ISIS’s instruction) to buy the ticket to get there!

what do you think she went for? An extended holiday? She knew ISIS was out there killing people and was told there was gratification from doing so and rewards would be great. Her friend that went before her told her the life she was living, how she got a husband who is caring for her and made it look all great.. presumed dead for years she was recently found and said she doesn’t want to return to the U.K. to face her crimes as they were fully aware of what they were getting into before leaving!

Shamima didn’t attempt to come home when she realised it wasn’t all it was made out to be! When she experienced the first horrible event over there she never reached out to try and return… but she did reach out to recruit others.

It wasn’t until ISIS had its come down, they was no longer getting anything and was put into a camp and living a life worse than she had imagined that she even attempted to try and come back! One interview she claimed she didn’t know about the killings before leaving or that she would need to take part, the next she said it was something she just didn’t think about because she was looking at the benefits!

The mosques was where they “groomed” them, investigations brought down a lot of them here in East London… they were the ones instructing them what to do and how to get there.. even told them what it involved but they chose what they wanted!

15 isn’t a kid that doesn’t know better! Back then school ended at 16 (I was 15 because of my birthdate) so I was considered an adult old enough to work and leave home at that age! She has contradicted herself many times and only when she saw the Canadian fighters being let back did she bother want to try and has been going on since.

she doesn’t want to face her crimes as she said that’s what will happen if she goes to Bangladesh and feels she is above the law. She was lucky to have been given a British citizenship in the first place let alone throw it away and then beg her return without punishment (but then say at the end she will go to prison if needs be right at the end when she kept being refused).

there is a lot more to her story than she is letting on, even her friends here are mocking her as they told her not to go! Same age as her, fully aware of the situation but she didn’t want to listen as she wanted to be better than! If she came back she would have to go into hiding as I don’t believe she would be alive for long!

I agree

The only sympathy I have is for her babies.

She has shown zero regret or remorse. She comes across cocky, not being phased by seeing dismembered bodies - what is that about?

And it has nothing to do with the colour of her skin, I would feel the same if she were white.

How are we being invited to have different standards? Those two little boys were tried for a crime they committed by the country they were born in are products of and sentenced to be held in secure facilities and rehabilitated in that same country. Has anyone said Shamima Begum should be held to a different standard? Who has said that? The problem is that those two little boys were accepted quite rightly not as monsters or demons or any other silly rhetoric, but as products of OUR society, and our society and legal system took responsibility for them. Shamima Begum is also a product of our country and it should take responsibility for her.

If anything, you are the one promoting different standards, because you seem to think some British people who commit a crime aren’t Britain’s responsibility while others are. I would be happy to see her tried for any crimes she is accused of and sentenced in Britain exactly like the two boys who committed that crime.

Did the other two girsl also have soemthing 'pre-existing'?

The Bulger killers comparison isn't very helpful to those who want Begum brought back.

the boys were under the age of 10 when they committed the murder and so had things been done by the book, they would not have been tried because they were under the age of criminal responsibility.

They only went through the rigmarole of an adult trial precisely BECAUSE there was such a public outcry that the then Home Sec decided to bend the rules (at the insistence of john Major).

This has been hotly debated in legal academia. Many law scholars (not exactly known as bleeding hearts) think their trial was wrong as they did not meet the standard of being able to fully understand what was going on and what their barristers were telling / advising them.

However, sometimes a case is so publically egregious that normal rules are bent. That happened in the case of the Bulger killers, and it's happening in the case of Begum.

And quite rightly so in both cases. Democracy should be pliable - not everything should be 100% done by the book. Politicians must also take public sentiment into account, on rare occasions, in truly egregious cases.

I haven’t seen much about them ? I’m just going by what I’ve read and the interviews I’ve seen of one person

It doesn't really matter in terms of what happens now - they are both dead

It should be for a court to decide. Revoking her citizenship was a move to play to the racists and pub bores and reverse virtue signalling that we're tough on immigration to 'dead cat' the lack of progress in controlling migration. She should be brought back to the UK and subject to our justice system.

A further note on the Bulger killers comparison, to show that it actually sets a decent precedent for not allowing Begum back home.

Jon Venables (one of the Bulger killers) was so incapable of understanding what he had been accused of that, after he had made his initial confession at the police station, he asked when James would be going home to his mother. Upon the bemused detectives replying that James would not be going back to his mother, because he was dead, because he, Venables, had killed him, Venables is on record as stating "Yes but he can go to the hospital and they can bring him back to life can't they?" On being told that James was permanently dead, Venables exhibited extreme physical shock and anguish.

Despite therefore clearly not meeting the standard of criminal responsibility (ie understanding what you have been accused of) he was committed for trial as an adult. Various witnesses at the trial have all stated that he clearly did not understand much of what was going on during his trial at all. (Thompson is said to have understood a little better, and in fact was later consistently reported to be far more intelligent than Venables, which may be why he responded to treatment and has not since re-offended).

So on any black and white view, Venables should not have been committed to adult trial. But strength of public feeling was such that a political decision was made that he should be.

Similarly - on any black and white view, Begum should probably come here to stand trial or stand trial in Bangladesh. But strength of public opinion is such that a political decision has been made that she should not be. A decision I support, although I appreciate others do not.

Victim.

Obviously.

I can't imagine anyone who cares about children being trafficked for sex feeling differently.

The problem is that those two little boys were accepted quite rightly not as monsters or demons or any other silly rhetoric, but as products of OUR society

Really? Clearly you don’t remember the news coverage at the time.