Is Shamima Begum a victim or a criminal?

[ShamimaBegu]

Just listened to the podcasts about Shamima Begum. How can Shamima Begum not be viewed as a victim of grooming and sex trafficking? How on earth would a 15 year old got to Syria without adults making it happen?
She was married off and became pregnant on multiple occasions. She surely is as much a victim as a criminal?

The age of criminal responsibility is 10yo. Most 15yo would know that stitching somebody into a suicide bomb jacket to ensure they can't escape is wrong.

Do show me the proof that she stitched people into suicide vests? Because as far as I'm aware that comes from an article in the Telegraph which said 'it was reported that' and extensive efforts by investigative journalists have not been able to find any reliable source.

And that is why it is so difficult to make war criminals accountable, most of the witnesses are dead or stay silent either for their own safety or to avoid sharing the blame.

It doesn’t mean that she is innocent.

True, however in this case there are several witnesses who say that she largely stayed at home being pregnant (5 pregnancies while she was out there, 2 miscarriages and 3 babies), including those who are still ideologically committed to ISIS and who would have applauded her for a more active role.

Clearly neither of you have any idea about how indoctrination and radicalisation work.

You only have to look at social media, politics, or religion to see that what someone 'knows is wrong' is entirely subjective and dependant on the sphere of influence they live in.

Many people think it's fine to bomb innocent people, as long as the intended target was an enemy combatant. Many people think the summary execution or imprisonment without trial of 'terrorists' is justified. Many people believe it would be morally right to hang a terrorisrt / murderer / rapist / paedophile / etc.

If you asked any mother of a 10-15 year old boy if they thought their son knew it was wrong to abuse women, the vast majority would say "yes, of course he knows how wrong that is". Yet, Andrew Tate and his brand of excessive / overt misogyny is built almost entirely on the backs of you boys/men and domestic violence / abuse is still sadly common place.

It's all well and good to say a 10-15 year old should know X is wrong, but that's wishful thinking at best, and reality is completely different. Without the right boundaries and checks in place (which people like Begum do not have) there's always a risk they'll not know X is seen as wrong, or be able to be convinced that X is acceptable in this situation or that situation.

Whether or not she should be our responsibility, there are thousands of people more deserving of the limited capacity we have to help everyone who needs help.

As I said upthread, it'd be amazing if homeless veterans got even close to the amount of sympathy this 'ex' terrorist gets.

But it's not about 'helping' her - we have dumped the responsibility for a citizen of this country, onto another country. That's both morally wrong (to her but also to a poorer country we've offloaded our problem to), and setting a dangerous precedent when we expect to be able to deport criminals from other countries back where they came from if they commit crime here.

Neither does what you say prove she is guilty.

I should think there are any number of former ISIS members trying to get repatriated who'd be only too happy to shop her in order to ingratiate themselves with their countries of origin.

I've yet to see evidence or strong and meaningful suggestion that she committed any crime other than travelling to join a terrorist organisation. Which is of course a crime.

But we also have responsibility to protect our country and inhabitants. Sending a message that 'if you leave to join ISIS you don't get to come back' is a strong deterrent.

We also have a responsibility for the people within our society who are struggling and didn't run off to plot against us. Like the aforementioned homeless veterans. Honestly, fuck ISIS and fuck Shamima. The cost of keeping her in a grotty camp is a fraction of the £7 million our government spends every day on housing illegal immigrants in hotels (not saying I disagree with this but mentioning for context).

@StepAwayFromTheBiscuitJar What about the fact that Shamima Begum was a British minor when she was targeted by ISIS? Weren't authorities responsible for safeguarding her?

Those girls sat in a bus station in Istanbul for more than 24h after flying. It seems bizarre to me that they didn't manage to track them. They were minors, and at least two of them had travelled on stolen passports. They knew where they'd flown to. Not to mention that their handler was acting for Canadian security services.

More going on with that than meets the eye in my humble opinion.

And btw, people aren't illegal. They may have come here illegally, or might be working illegally, but the individuals themselves are not "illegal people".

I think she’s more criminal than victim. However It’s really complex . She was young , but just because she was young when she did it, that doesn’t make her innocent . Everyone’s got to start somewhere . She could come back for the UK and still hold the same views . I don’t see her as a reformed character.

I am glad she hasn’t been allowed back to the UK , she could not be easily be a security risk and our justice system is too weak to deal with it. Who knows what is going on in her head .

I've never understood the hatred towards her. She was a child who was groomed. She is a victim.

These just make me even less keen to have her back in the country. She'll be out in the public within a few years and I have no faith in our services (mental health, police, etc) to provide the necessary support or tracking.

And 'illegal immigrants' is a well known term. I don't know where you got 'illegal people' from.

I'd wager you'd feel differently had one of your children been killed in the Manchester bombing. Seeing her attempt to justify it and knowing that she deliberately chose to support the organisations responsible.

I may be very wrong as I've not just looked in to this but what I remember from some time ago was that she was basically saying children have died on both sides, no?

She said it was justified because Syrian children were also killed in bombings. The difference is that the air strikes were not specifically intended to kill civilians and wouldn't have happened without the presence of Shamima's mates.

Agree with this. The money it would take to monitor her would be unreal. She could go to Bangladesh. Why won't she? Because they wouldn't be so soft or even be debating her fate. She maybe a British citizen, but she condemned it and everything it stood for. I think she needs to stay away for her own protection.

Because she's never visited Bangladesh and has no known links there?

How about the minor point that she doesn't have Bangladeshi citizenship and they have said they won't take her or give her a passport?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47312207

But we're not sending the message 'if you leave to join ISIS you don't get to come back' - over 300 UK men who went to join ISIS and actually fought for them have been allowed back and are walking the streets of the UK. How is she more dangerous then they were/are?

And if you don't agree with spending.£millions on housing illegal immigrants, I assume you think we should be able to send them back where they came from? How can we, if we won't take back our citizens from other countries? We can't have it both ways.

But it’s ok for Syria to spend the money looking after her?

This is totally ridiculous logic.

But it’s ok for Syria to spend the money looking after her?

She’s costing Syria fuck all.

Who do you think is responsible for the infrastructure of the camp? Who do you think is guarding it?

These posters don't care. Basically, they're just xenophobic.