AIBU to think this man (who has undergone no transitioning) should be allow play on women's teams. Sick to my stomach this is happening.

[Mommymoments]

https://extra.ie/2022/09/09/news/transgender-gaa-player-speaks-out

This man (in red) has undergone no attempt to transition. Yet he's playing on women's GAA football teams in Ireland because he feels he's a woman.
Imagine him tackling a poor woman would have no chance. Prior to that he played women's rugby.
Why is this happening in women's sports, prisons, changing rooms, toilets.
Why are trans women's rights more important than ours.
This man (who is in no way a woman or even a trans woman) needs to play with a team where the rest of the players have penises too or else start his own trans league. Get out of women's sports & spaces.

Absolutely lunacy, what sort of world are we living in. I worry about our daughters and their future.

Which utter fuckwits have decided that this is right. Total lunacy. A five yr old could explain why it’s not fair/right/safe. Why are grown adults, in positions of authority, so fucking dim. Pisses me right off.

The very idea that we need studies to prove that biological males and biological females have (on average) different levels of physical strength, regardless of the hormones they may or may not take... It's astounding. The difference is visibly observable. Studies and 'evidence' are nice to have, I suppose, but they're not necessary for anyone with an ounce of common sense. The only ones who need convincing will simply change tactics. Suddenly it doesn't matter if it's fair. It's all about being kind, progressive, or inclusive.

Quite frankly, I don't give a fig about being inclusive, in this matter. Inclusivity isn't the be all and end all. Sometimes there are valid reasons to exclude certain people from certain places and activities.

Because studies, evidence, fact none of it matters, the most important thing in the world, is men getting what they want.

They're not excluded. There are categories for male athletes and categories for female athletes. There are even mixed sex sports.

Why would you NOT want someone who is male to be excluded from women's sports? There is literally no reason for them to be included!

For any person who still believes the 'women with high level of testosterone' falsehoods, please read this.

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues). 5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

https://twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ 

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this

“The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population.”

Meaning that even 5.5 mol/l is 'very high' for a female and they could have a tumour that is causing this level.

This is nothing like these reported 'women with naturally high testosterone'.

This has happened because the media has to report these male as 'women' and this creates this false phraseology which then propagates around the world through media. Even an African nation's sports minister used the phrase.

The effect is to garner sympathy. And to normalise these males being in female sport.

It is simply lying. If you are using this terminology, do you understand the effect on female sports of doing so?

If he is a woman he is a rather grotesque, not to say ugly, specimen!

I suggest you go and look at the twitter feed of people such as Ross Tucker.

"If the issue was just physical safety in a contact sport then theoretically it'd be sensible to impose size limits (upper and lower) or introduce weight categories similar to boxing? "

This is irrelevant when you consider the residual differences when you look at the studies that have now been posted on this thread.

For instance, a male in the weakest quartile of grip strength (even after testosterone suppression) still has a grip strength that is stronger than 90% of females.

Punching power is also a ridiculous different.

Then there is twitch muscles ratio in male vs female which I have never seen discussed as being changed.

One of the biggest differences is the Q Angle of a female's hips vs males. This has so much impact on stability and range of movement. This does not change under ANY drug treatment.

What about menstruation.

And if you want to get into social factors, female children even today experience discrimination in sport from what I have seen through personal experience. That cannot be countered at all to make some men feel better.

Finally, if a male has to take medication for any health reason that decreases their performance, will you allow them into the female sport's category too? Because how is any male who is taking performance decreasing medication any different?

Here is a chart to go with the testosterone level discussion.

I believe the 'Semenya line' was the line that they would have been required to reduce their testosterone to to compete.

Again, if you are using the phrase 'women with normally high levels of testosterone' please understand that you are spreading falsehoods.

Why is it so hard to believe that this is real?

The op of the post you quoted went on to post another reply that makes it clear where they stand on trans issues. It is NOT on the side of women.

Blimey how has this thread got to page 14 without being moved to the naughty corner?

I didn't think Emperor's New Clothes threads were allowed in AIBU

I have said this elsewhere - in most areas there are shades of grey. Here there isn't any nuance in my opinion. Sport should be divided by sex. Men playing against and with men, women playing against and with women (other than mixed sex relays).

People with DSD should have their own category at Para events.

It all feels very much like a grey area to me. At what part are you womanly enough to play with biological women? I don't have a strong enough opinion either way on it because I know men that have transitioned or are transitioning who I would not want to be excluded

How is it a grey area? You yourself acknowledge that your friends are men. Why shouldn't they be excluded from the female category? It's not about being "womanly", it's about being female.

There's no such thing as being 'fake' trans or a troll however. You're trans if you say you are. That's the only criteria. Acceptance without exception.

This is where it all unravels, isn't it?

It's why Nicola Sturgeon couldn't bring herself to say 'he' when discussing Isla Bryson, because 'I am what I say I am' is the foundation on which the whole edifice of Self ID rests.

Once you start to say, well that person isn't REALLY who they say they are, the tower collapses. As it must.

Rather than using facts and data to justify the exclusion of trans women from women's sports, I prefer to flip it round.

How do you justify their inclusion?

What do they have in common with natal women and girls, such that it makes sense for there to be a sporting category which includes them both?

They do not share a biological sex.

They do not share any kind of identity.

The "gender identity of woman" appears to be something that only transgender males actually have.

So if you have a sporting category consisting of "transgender male athletes who believe their gender identity is woman, and female athletes of any or no gender identity provided they are not on testosterone"... why?

What is the purpose of this category? Justify its existence to us, please.

From a sporting perspective it's really black and white, anyone who has undergone make adolescence has a significant advantage in numerous areas to anyone who underwent female adolescence in areas of

Lean mass, muscle mass, bone mass and various other areas, even in men and women who are ostensibly the same height and weight.

asbmr.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1359/JBMR.041005

As for the guy in the OP, he's an embarrassment.

Agreed

By the way Curiosity are you aware that females have more delicate skulls, and inside those skulls are brains with more delicate nerve fibres.

This makes female people so much more prone to concussion and serious brain damage. Including, no less, early dementia from repetitive damage to the brain.

The 'power' of a 'large biological woman' for so many reasons will not be the same as a 'small weakened male'. Just because they might have one limiting factor, they still have skeletal and muscular type advantages. FFS. Even bone density is greater.

A 'large biological woman' could very likely cause damage. But it is hugely more likely that a 'small weakened man' will cause more damage.

The lies that certain groups are very deliberately spreading is very harmful for all female sports people at any age. And those attempting the 'whataboutery' of size categories are some of the most ideologically driven and dishonest in my opinion.

Happy to provide you with links to the brain component research. Or you can look it up . It was done by the Swansea University.

I feel like my comments might have been taken slightly badly by some.

But to answer one question someone posed about why I wouldn't want some of the people who I know who have transitioned excluded.

It's not so much that I have an opinion on whether it's right or wrong for them to be included in sports in particular. I can see a lot of scientific research that has been shared here that gives good reason to why you'd keep them separate!

But a large part of me empathises with the individuals. Someone who has already had a tough time becoming ok with themselves as a person, and who by no real fault of their own now might have something they care about denied to them. I still don't have strong feelings one way or another about what's right, although clearly I can see there obviously is plenty of research to suggest keeping a biological sex based separation so logically that's probably the right decision. But I still empathise for what is possibly a sizeable population of people who (sport aside) still don't feel like there is always a place in society for them.

What I find extra difficult (slight tangent) is the fact that there will be some trans women who are excluded from women's spaces and forced to use men's (just because that's how society is set up). And I empathise with how I would feel to have to use the men's space, and how uncomfortable I would feel but on the flip side I can see that it can put women at risk and that shouldn't be the case either. At the end of the day those most at risk/most vulnerable should probably be protected first, which in this case would be biological women. But it still makes me sad when I think about the individuals I know and how life is for them. What I hope is someone comes up with a solution where everyone 'fits' without compromise. Feels like a fantasy though, which is what leaves me in the grey area without a strong opinion either way.

Someone who has already had a tough time becoming ok with themselves as a person, and who by no real fault of their own now might have something they care about denied to them.

But you seem to be glossing over the fact that they never had any rights to that thing in the first place.

It doesn't matter how marginalised people are or how tough things have been, it doesn't legitimise them taking things that are meant for others. Others who have also had their own 'tough times' to deal with.

If they had campaigned for their own spaces and categories to begin with, none of this would have happened.

So no grey areas at all, I don't think. Just people who went about things the wrong way.

now might have something they care about denied to them

Well sorry, but we can't always get what we want.

I mean I want Henry Caville to be my sex slave. I identify as his lover. I'm really sad about the restraining order. I should just have Henry as I am sad and really want it and I am the most vulnerable ever. I'm in at least two intersectional vulnerable categories. Henry as a white male is privileged. He needs to give in.

Or maybe that's fucking ridiculous as is you granting women's rights and spaces for men because of hurty feels.

Tough shit. Life's not fair.
Sorry, too abrupt?
I mean, I'm empathetic and respect blah blah blah but ultimately a compromise isn't possible.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/athletics/2022/03/24/sonia-osullivan-transgender-athletes-cannot-be-allowed-to-compete-in-womens-sport-1.4834586/

Fantastic article from Irish athlete Sonia O Sullivan

I think you need to accept that in the cases of female single sex spaces, third spaces has been discussed for a long time.

And rejected.

Maybe even by your friends. Rejected because for some male people, it is not a safety issue, it is the women in those spaces being needed for whatever reason those male people demand. To validate is but one reason they demand access to the female single sex spaces.

Once women see this, then why should any woman support males accessing these spaces.

Just like the sports issue, what other male person who has 'worked so hard' to be who they are should be allowed access to female sports or single sex spaces. The logic fails every single time.

Sorry, no male has 'by no real fault of their own now might have something they care about denied to them'. Female spaces and sports were NEVER for them to access. Nor was any description of 'woman' theirs to take.

This might sound blunt and uncaring, however it is the raw and unvarnished truth.

Any male who has ever sought to access female spaces and sports on account of how they felt did so without once respecting the female half of the population. Whether they intended to or not, this was misogynistic of them.

If these males want to build their sports category to suit their needs, go for it. But instead, every one of those males who accessed female spaces and sports in this way needs to take responsibility that they chose to do so instead of finding a solution that worked.

Blame Stonewall. Blame allies. Blame women who told these males it was 'ok' when it never was. But a male who valued female people of all ages who did this need to take responsibility. Those people as a whole have not sought to find solutions - they were part of 'no debate' if they were there using the female spaces, words and sports.

I join you now in hoping that they can find solutions that work to fit their unique needs. But it is time to be honest about this.

"Those people as a whole have not sought to find solutions - they were part of 'no debate' if they were there using the female spaces, words and sports."

I mean that those people as a whole have not sought to find solutions - they were part of 'no debate' if they were there using the female spaces, words and sports - even if they were not yelling 'no debate' at women. They need to accept that they were complicit.

And if they never came forward, why? Because they were actually comfortable with using spaces some without the permission of women as a whole gave them permission to sue?

Or because they were scared?

And if they were scared of their own community, why the fuck are people in that community (not you, this is a general point) making their own people and members scared of speaking? And why the fuck is that community declared to be so wonderfully loving and tolerant as I have seen so often on MN?

Because I believe that there were trans people who were and remain scared of their community. It is defies belief that people try to spin the lie that a group that allows women to be screamed at, threatened, assaulted and silenced know one fucking thing about tolerance. And I doubt they know anything about 'love' either.

Someone who has already had a tough time becoming ok with themselves as a person, and who by no real fault of their own now might have something they care about denied to them.

And what about the female athletes who have worked so hard to get to the top of their field. Who have made huge personal sacrifices to be the best they can be at their sport.

Then they are denied a medal, or a placing or a scholarship that they really care about by a male who is nowhere near as talented, hasn't worked anywhere near as hard and has got there by virtue of being male.

FUCK THAT