AIBU to think this man (who has undergone no transitioning) should be allow play on women's teams. Sick to my stomach this is happening.

[Mommymoments]

https://extra.ie/2022/09/09/news/transgender-gaa-player-speaks-out

This man (in red) has undergone no attempt to transition. Yet he's playing on women's GAA football teams in Ireland because he feels he's a woman.
Imagine him tackling a poor woman would have no chance. Prior to that he played women's rugby.
Why is this happening in women's sports, prisons, changing rooms, toilets.
Why are trans women's rights more important than ours.
This man (who is in no way a woman or even a trans woman) needs to play with a team where the rest of the players have penises too or else start his own trans league. Get out of women's sports & spaces.

Stonewall is very well funded. They could be ploughing millions into third space provision.

Why aren't they?

@TheKeatingFive they just want to be in women's spaces & faces.. It's a joke.

Again kudos to mumsnet this week for keeping up the discussions. Common sense is prevailing finally.

Too busy trying to make out that trans people have been banned from playing sport whilst giving very little attention to Uganda which has just introduced the death penalty for homosexuality.

The thing is @whatkatydid2013 back in the day before we realised how unrelenting TRA demands would be, many of us are where you are now

‘surely if we’re all reasonable we can find a solution, third spaces’ etc but then we realised that the relentless threats, anger, encroaching on women’s spaces was a feature not a bug

i think it was Datun who really crystallised this and she puts it much better than me but essentially the point of the spaces is the women in them. Without women in the room, it’s just a room. They need women to be in the space too for it to be validating. Hence the likes of Hannah mountcey being so angry at being asked to shower separately or the TW at work who when they found out women were using a different toilet to them (because you know not wanting to share with a man) tried to force them to use the same toilet as they did.

they don’t want third spaces, they want womens spaces

@TheKeatingFive you're so right. They're too concerned about their first world problems 🙄
What's happening in Uganda is absolutely horrific.

In 2021, the Sports Council Equality Group who represent the governing bodies of Sport England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland said:
'Competitive fairness cannot be reconciled with self-identification into the female category in gender- affected sport.'
'sports should retain sex categorisation'
'testosterone suppression is unlikely to guarantee fairness between transgender women and natal females in gender-affected sports:',
‘Case-by-case’ assessment is unlikely to be practical nor verifiable for entry'
'Categorisation by sex is lawful, and hence the requirement to request information relating to birth sex is appropriate.'

Any UK sporting organisation permitting trans identifying male persons from competing in female sport should be challenged based on the guidance from SCEG.

The example in the OP is from Ireland, where self id has been in place for somtime and no such guidance exists.

https://news.yahoo.com/male-athlete-wins-women-cycling-151630094.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubXVtc25ldC5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAM1cU2eIbRab7VJ1VV0ibPcQX0M2ioJQEj-9DZOggH8MO_wVQSUgMB_tkgqfSXsSO6j4b2TqRsuKXLQws712aiH0nMaYVE1fnO5aJXE6trwBFwFwjNRWdXDfXC7pGCjaFL0ygz7DBMptFSVR3QneaMyA5Yk7P1kZ80SAcU0O376v

Starts cycling aged 40 and surprise surprise beating women 20 years younger when 47.

@BoogieFun

'...And a biological male Autistic person who waa seeking treatment to transition who told me they wanted to transition because 'women are much better at being empathic and understanding other people's feelings'.
*
So to me, their desire to transition was because being a 'woman' would magically stop them from having the social communication, interaction and imagination difficulties that were part of their ASC. And they have sensory things and just preferences where they liked soft fabrics so thought that wanting to wear silks, satins and the physical freedom of shirts and dresses so they meant they must really be a woman?'*

Yes. I think this is very possibly what's going on. Thankyou for putting into words what was a nebulous mess in my head!

There have been a couple of instances where women (wrongly or rightly) have been banned from playing because their natural testosterone levels are too high and it would be unfair.

Yet there are men who are allowed to compete who have had years of much higher testosterone levels and benefitted from the effects of it their entire lives.

It is very unfair.

Just remember dear Mumsnetters, that ‘men’ who can only win at sport by pretending they identify as ‘women’ are basically just shit at their chosen sport and the only way they can hope to win is by playing as the gentle sex!
So a 19 stone woman called Rita instead of Peter who still sports a full beard is just a rubbish footballer/cyclist/ swimmer.

It certainly reads long.

Exactly. Well said.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22229491/

Clip from morning Ireland which had a transgender scientist in to say science backs up trans playing in women's sports. No woman athlete on air to give a woman's perspective

Joanna Harper, scientist and trans athlete speaks to Kate Varley as the World Athletics Council announces they are to ban transwomen from participating in female category events; Prof Donal O'Shea, Endocrinologist, also gives his reaction to the decision.

Please watch the above link & see the trans propaganda that is currently ruling Irish media

It all feels very much like a grey area to me. At what part are you womanly enough to play with biological women? I don't have a strong enough opinion either way on it because I know men that have transitioned or are transitioning who I would not want to be excluded, but equally appreciate that a man could claim to be transgender for nefarious reasons and that in sports this definitely could confer some unfair advantages to the person who has transitioned.

If the issue was just physical safety in a contact sport then theoretically it'd be sensible to impose size limits (upper and lower) or introduce weight categories similar to boxing? Cause you could still have large biological women playing on teams with very small biological women.

Clip from morning Ireland which had a transgender scientist in to say science backs up trans playing in women's sports. No woman athlete on air to give a woman's perspective

Well he's wrong.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

There are now many more studies which prove men maintain their advantage from male puberty and higher testosterone levels even after taking female hormones and suppressing testosterone.

The thing is there is a multitude of physical advantages that males have over women in sport not just height and weight, there are hormonal, lung, bones density etc.

A 5ft male runner would beat a 5ft female runner because of all the other advantages being male includes.

Is it realistically possible to check all those things and put people into categories on the basis of all the different biological advantages. No.

I’m having some back and forth on TT about this at the moment. I really struggle with the basic premise of the argument that seems to be that sex isn’t that important in sport.

Yet when you ask basic questions there is no logical answer…

*If sex isn’t relevant then why do men outperform women in almost every sport. I literally can’t think of any, where the male and female sport is the same, where females outperform men.

*If some people believe that sex isn’t relevant why would you ask for transwomen to be admitted to the female category instead of asking for all sex categories to be abolished.

*If trans hormone treatment make that much difference where are all the tea males competing in male sports and beating the best times.

@FOJN its so frustrating as an Irish woman that we weren't given a voice re the Athletics ban. We heard from a transgender scientist & a male doctor. It was like women didn't exist.

It all feels very much like a grey area to me. At what part are you womanly enough to play with biological women?

when you’re female. HTH 😀

To be clear though, these are NOT female athletes at all.

No woman has a 'natural testosterone' level that is 'too high' for playing sport. They are male people with differences of sex development. But they are definitely male. And most likely have realised they were male from puberty.

And therefore to be very blunt, which you may not like to hear, there is very little difference except they may have, or may not have after puberty, been brought up a woman.

Unfortunately the media has stated they are 'women' but they are not. These males though have made the choice to compete when they know they are not female and that if a female took testosterone they would be banned.

If my son wanted to 'live as a woman' I'd insist that he lived as me for a couple of weeks.

Not that he'd last a couple of weeks.

A man can never be womanly. He can adopt a feminine presentation but he can not adopt a womanly presentation. A woman will alway be female no matter how masculine she presents.

Why do you think the male transitioners you know should not be excluded?

What would be your criteria for inclusion/exclusion?

How can we tell the difference between a man pretending to be trans and someone more sincere in their identity?

A man will always be stronger and faster than a woman of a similar size and age. Men in their late 40's are trouncing female cyclists who are at the peak of fitness and in their 20's.

MMA fighters are separated into weight categories and yet a trans fighter fractured the skull of a female opponent.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight

Living as a woman certainly doesn't seem to include pulling your weight in unpaid labour.