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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think this man (who has undergone no transitioning) should be allow play on women's teams. Sick to my stomach this is happening.

388 replies

Mommymoments · 24/03/2023 07:43

https://extra.ie/2022/09/09/news/transgender-gaa-player-speaks-out

This man (in red) has undergone no attempt to transition. Yet he's playing on women's GAA football teams in Ireland because he feels he's a woman.
Imagine him tackling a poor woman would have no chance. Prior to that he played women's rugby.
Why is this happening in women's sports, prisons, changing rooms, toilets.
Why are trans women's rights more important than ours.
This man (who is in no way a woman or even a trans woman) needs to play with a team where the rest of the players have penises too or else start his own trans league. Get out of women's sports & spaces.

transgender

Transgender GAA Player: 'I Wish To Leave Lasting Legacy'

Transgender GAA player Giulia Valentino has broken her silence after a controversy erupted when a referee said she couldn't continue playing because of her

https://extra.ie/2022/09/09/news/transgender-gaa-player-speaks-out

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Helleofabore · 24/03/2023 13:38

This reply has been hidden

This reply has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

Helleofabore · 24/03/2023 13:41

FOJN · 24/03/2023 13:21

Clip from morning Ireland which had a transgender scientist in to say science backs up trans playing in women's sports. No woman athlete on air to give a woman's perspective

Well he's wrong.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

There are now many more studies which prove men maintain their advantage from male puberty and higher testosterone levels even after taking female hormones and suppressing testosterone.

oopps. Let's try that again.

Hey everyone, this link seems to be broken. they must have moved it.

There is a copy if you plug the link into archive (dot) ph. I cannot post that link.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

FOJN · 24/03/2023 13:41

Mommymoments · 24/03/2023 13:27

@FOJN its so frustrating as an Irish woman that we weren't given a voice re the Athletics ban. We heard from a transgender scientist & a male doctor. It was like women didn't exist.

You think women can talk about science? You must be one of them feminazis. I bet you don't shave your legs or wear lipstick! 😂

Misogyny never goes out of fashion.

FOJN · 24/03/2023 13:42

Helleofabore · 24/03/2023 13:41

oopps. Let's try that again.

Hey everyone, this link seems to be broken. they must have moved it.

There is a copy if you plug the link into archive (dot) ph. I cannot post that link.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Ta very much. I reached by a link in twitter, could that be where the foul up happened?

User339406 · 24/03/2023 13:42

Mommymoments · 24/03/2023 08:59

@HoneyPotBee i think we need to keep all this fresh in people's minds. I have three daughters who love sport including GAA here in Ireland. Why should one of my girls have to face him on the playing field. Him who says he's perfectly comfortable with his "genitals"..

I also have kids involved in GAA, I've written to them to object. I have no idea if they'll care.

We're in Scotland where gaelic football is very much a minority sport and the reason ds started playing was because of their inclusive, family friendly nature, compared to soccer which is obviously much more popular and therefore competitive so he wasn't getting a decent game (because he's not very good).

If this happened at our club I would be strongly protesting. Many of our women's players are only in their late teens, early 20s. They should not be put in a position where they either have to play against a man or publicly refuse to play against him. A woman of any age shouldn't be in that position but at least in my 40s I'd have no problem saying no.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 24/03/2023 13:44

FOJN · 24/03/2023 13:21

Clip from morning Ireland which had a transgender scientist in to say science backs up trans playing in women's sports. No woman athlete on air to give a woman's perspective

Well he's wrong.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

There are now many more studies which prove men maintain their advantage from male puberty and higher testosterone levels even after taking female hormones and suppressing testosterone.

Here is a different perspective with very similar conclusions from Harper.

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865

Joanne Harper does continue to be brought into these discussions but the reality is that Harper knows. Harper is trying to prove now that Emily Bridges performance is significantly reduced but it seems like a very dodgy methodology.

Harper keeps trying to position it as 'inclusion' because they know that there is no fairness.

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865

Helleofabore · 24/03/2023 13:45

FOJN · 24/03/2023 13:42

Ta very much. I reached by a link in twitter, could that be where the foul up happened?

No. The legacy link from break it down is broken too.

SillySausage81 · 24/03/2023 13:45

When I was younger I genuinely thought the word misogyny was hyperbole. I didn't think anyone hated women, and I didn't think sexism stemmed from hatred of women. (lol yeah, I know 🙄I was naive).

But there is simply no other explanation for some of this stuff, including this instance.

In order to think this is acceptable, you really have to believe women are worthless. That our safety counts for nothing. That the hopes and dreams of female athletes count for diddly squat next to the feelings of a bearer of The Almighty Penis.

SidewaysOtter · 24/03/2023 13:45

TheKeatingFive · 24/03/2023 12:51

Stonewall is very well funded. They could be ploughing millions into third space provision.

Why aren't they?

Because it's easier to take someone else's rights than create space for new ones, and because there's better headlines mileage in creating a 'them and us' situation by demonising women standing up for their rights because if you're one of us then you'll be donating to our coffers, right?

Mommymoments · 24/03/2023 13:46

User339406 · 24/03/2023 13:42

I also have kids involved in GAA, I've written to them to object. I have no idea if they'll care.

We're in Scotland where gaelic football is very much a minority sport and the reason ds started playing was because of their inclusive, family friendly nature, compared to soccer which is obviously much more popular and therefore competitive so he wasn't getting a decent game (because he's not very good).

If this happened at our club I would be strongly protesting. Many of our women's players are only in their late teens, early 20s. They should not be put in a position where they either have to play against a man or publicly refuse to play against him. A woman of any age shouldn't be in that position but at least in my 40s I'd have no problem saying no.

Absolutely sports bodies need to be doing all they can to keep teenage girls active in sports. They don't give a hoot & the GAA are actually sponsored by a pharmaceutical company which produces hormone blockers & other trans medicines.. Money always talks with the GAA.

OP posts:
TodayInahurry · 24/03/2023 13:46

Just a man bullying women😡 and Keir Starmer won’t say what a woman is, so he won’t attempt to stop this evil

FOJN · 24/03/2023 13:46

Link to the springer article isn't working for me from MN. Here's a link to twitter, it's Sharon Davies TL, where the article is linked.

twitter.com/sharrond62/status/1639248099045679106?s=20

Helleofabore · 24/03/2023 13:47

Adding the USAF study here for people to read.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577

Timothy A Roberts, Joshua Smalley, Dale Ahrendt

Effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance in transwomen and transmen: implications for sporting organisations and legislators

Summary The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events.

It is interesting reading as it also leaves the suggestion that even after 3 years advantage still exists.

And Sean Ingle’s take on it.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

Trans women retain 12% edge in tests two years after transitioning, study finds

Trans women retained a 12% advantage and their testosterone levels remained higher even after two years of taking suppressing hormones

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

Mommymoments · 24/03/2023 13:48

FOJN · 24/03/2023 13:41

You think women can talk about science? You must be one of them feminazis. I bet you don't shave your legs or wear lipstick! 😂

Misogyny never goes out of fashion.

Long live us feminazis & our hairy legs & pits🤣

OP posts:
ThoseDamnCrows · 24/03/2023 13:48

Curiosity101 · 24/03/2023 13:17

It all feels very much like a grey area to me. At what part are you womanly enough to play with biological women? I don't have a strong enough opinion either way on it because I know men that have transitioned or are transitioning who I would not want to be excluded, but equally appreciate that a man could claim to be transgender for nefarious reasons and that in sports this definitely could confer some unfair advantages to the person who has transitioned.

If the issue was just physical safety in a contact sport then theoretically it'd be sensible to impose size limits (upper and lower) or introduce weight categories similar to boxing? Cause you could still have large biological women playing on teams with very small biological women.

You might not want those men to be excluded, but by including them you are excluding me.

I do not want to play sports against men, however they might identify, and I certainly do not want them in female changing rooms.

Do you think teenage girls should get undressed in front of middle-aged men?

Helleofabore · 24/03/2023 13:50

A new study released 14th December 2022 from Nederlands and Denmark.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36534950/

Lisanne H P Houben, Maarten Overkamp, Puck van Kraaij, Jorn Trommelen, Joep G H van Roermund, Peter de Vries, Kevin de Laet, Saskia van der Meer, Ulla R Mikkelsen, Lex B Verdijk, Luc J C van Loon, Sandra Beijer, Milou Beelen

Abstract

Purpose: To assess the effects of 20 weeks resistance exercise training with or without protein supplementation on body composition, muscle mass, muscle strength, physical performance and aerobic capacity in prostate cancer patients receiving androgen deprivation therapy (ADT).

Methods: Sixty prostate cancer patients receiving ADT were randomly assigned to perform 20 weeks of resistance exercise training with supplementation of 31 g whey protein (EX+PRO, n = 30) or placebo (EX+PLA, n = 30), consumed immediately after exercise and every night before sleep. A separate control group (CON, n = 36) only received usual care. At baseline and after 20 weeks, body composition (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry), muscle mass (computed tomography scan), muscle strength (1-repetition maximum strength tests), physical performance (Timed Up and Go Test, 30-second Chair Stand Test, Stair Climb Test), aerobic capacity (cardiopulmonary exercise test) and habitual dietary intake (food diary), were assessed. Data were analyzed using a two-factor repeated-measures ANOVA.

Results: Over time, muscle mass and strength increased in EX+PRO and EX+PLA and decreased in CON. Total fat mass and fat percentage increased in EX+PRO and CON, but not in EX+PLA. Physical performance did not significantly change over time in either group. Aerobic capacity was maintained in EX+PLA, while it decreased in EX+PRO and CON. Habitual protein intake (without supplements) averaged >1.0 g·kg body weight-1·day-1, with no differences over time or between groups.

Conclusions: In prostate cancer patients, resistance exercise training counteracts the adverse effects of ADT on body composition, muscle mass, muscle strength and aerobic capacity, with no additional benefits of protein supplementation.

FOJN · 24/03/2023 13:51

SillySausage81 · 24/03/2023 13:45

When I was younger I genuinely thought the word misogyny was hyperbole. I didn't think anyone hated women, and I didn't think sexism stemmed from hatred of women. (lol yeah, I know 🙄I was naive).

But there is simply no other explanation for some of this stuff, including this instance.

In order to think this is acceptable, you really have to believe women are worthless. That our safety counts for nothing. That the hopes and dreams of female athletes count for diddly squat next to the feelings of a bearer of The Almighty Penis.

I don't think you are alone. When Greer said, 'women have no idea how much men hate them', I though it was bullshit. It isn't and I don't think it's all men but there are an awful lot of them out there who would like us to shut up and get back in the kitchen or on our knees.

Helleofabore · 24/03/2023 13:51

this is an interesting read and I believe that Jon Pike has been involved in the World Athletics process too.

Meaningful competition by Jon Pike

Why ‘Meaningful Competition’ is not fair competition

6th Feb 2023
www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00948705.2023.2167720

ABSTRACT

In this paper I discuss a new conception that has arrived relatively recently on the scene, in the context of the debate over the inclusion of transwomen (hereafter TW) in female sport. That conception is ‘Meaningful Competition’ (hereafter MC) – a term used by some of those who advocate for the inclusion of TW in female sport if and only if they reduce their testosterone levels. I will argue that MC is not fair. I understand MC as a substitute concept, as an attempt to substitute for the perfectly serviceable concept of fair competition. It is an attempt at conceptual engineering that should be resisted. This is important because some International Federations have accepted MC as good coin, and the underlying theory of MC, which I explicate for the first time, underpins the stance taken by the IOC (International Olympic Committee) in its Framework Document. To establish that the inclusion of TW in female sport meets the criteria of MC in the sense I explicate here, does not show that the inclusion of TW in female sport is fair. Such inclusion is not fair, and the proper currency of sport is fair competition. ‘Meaningful Competition’, on the other hand, is a snare and a delusion.

Helleofabore · 24/03/2023 13:54

And finally from Brazil this study last year.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2022/09/01/bjsports-2021-105400.info

Cardiopulmonary capacity and muscle strength in transgender women on long-term gender-affirming hormone therapy: a cross-sectional study

Leonardo Azevedo Mobilia Alvares, Marcelo Rodrigues Santos, Francis Ribeiro Souza, Lívia Marcela Santos, Berenice Bilharinho de Mendonça, Elaine Maria Frade Costa, Maria Janieire Nazaré Nunes Alves, Sorahia Domenice

Conclusion
In this small cohort of non-athlete TW, who were previously exposed to male pubertal development and underwent long-term oestrogen therapy, we identified higher grip strength and VO2 peak levels than in non-athlete CW, but these same parameters were lower compared with non-athlete CM.

These findings add new insights to the sparse information available on a highly controversial topic about the participation of TW in physical activities. Future studies involving transgender athletes that account for and quantify variable exposure times to pubertal development and assess muscle cell metabolism are needed to elucidate the effects of long-term GAHT on TW sports performance.

From Ross Tucker on this study above:

Over a decade (14.4 yrs average) of T-suppression, and TW have VO2max 20% higher, grip strength 19% higher & skeletal mass 40% than women. More evidence that male biology persists long after T is removed. Another piece of the same puzzle, albeit from a cross-sectional study.

The cross-sectional bit is important - the study hasn't (like over a dozen others) tracked people from Day zero onwards, so the differences are a 'snapshot' rather than a 'movie', if that makes sense? Means you don't know how those TW began, 14.4 yrs earlier, but the finding of quite large differences compared to women (20% or more) is striking, because a) they either began as typically representative of males, and lost some, but retained significant advantages vs women, or b) they began well below men, and lost hardly any advantages. In either case, the end point, over a decade later, is biological differences compared to women that will create performance implications. Of interest, the mass retention and VO2max advantage mean that relative VO2max (ml/kg/min) ends up similar, which means in some sports (weight-determined) the performance implication may differ - sometimes very large, sometimes smaller, as in some categories within endurance sports.

But zero? Unlikely, because cardio function, FFM & strength are greater. Important paper, showing striking biological 'persistence' 14 yrs on.
Two further thoughts on the study. First, the TW vs women differences in muscle mass and strength remain large (20%) after more than a decade of T suppression. One year vs ten, biology "persists". Second, add training to the mix and TW and women would obviously get stronger.

You could TRY to argue that women would get stronger relatively more than TW (you'd have a job on your hands to explain why this would be, but anyway). More likely is that the differences - TW vs women - would persist or even increase with the addition of training. What this study confirms is that non-trained TW retain biological differences with performance implications after 14 years of T suppression. You'd have to believe that W could make up these gaps with training to believe in fairness in sport. That is, trained W = non-trained TW = fair!

Helleofabore · 24/03/2023 13:58

Apologies as it might seem I am spamming the thread. However, these studies are out there and show that those people declaring 'there is no science' are declaring their wishful thinking.

The studies over the past years have all shown the same thing. Males who wish to compete in female categories simply don't like that the science is very clear.

These males know.

When you have 55 year old males keeping up with 20 and 30 year old women who are very fit and healthy on a football field ... they know.

When you have 40 something out of condition and barely recovered from serious injury males winning Olympic spots over 25-30 year old women in elite peak fitness... they know.

They just want the reality to be different.

YukoandHiro · 24/03/2023 14:00

@PinkFlamingo888 do you have a record of the injury? Eg did you need medical observation or treatment?
If so, make sure that you sue the club.

Naunet · 24/03/2023 14:02

Curiosity101 · 24/03/2023 13:17

It all feels very much like a grey area to me. At what part are you womanly enough to play with biological women? I don't have a strong enough opinion either way on it because I know men that have transitioned or are transitioning who I would not want to be excluded, but equally appreciate that a man could claim to be transgender for nefarious reasons and that in sports this definitely could confer some unfair advantages to the person who has transitioned.

If the issue was just physical safety in a contact sport then theoretically it'd be sensible to impose size limits (upper and lower) or introduce weight categories similar to boxing? Cause you could still have large biological women playing on teams with very small biological women.

There’s no grey area, there are men and there are women. No one can change sex, it’s literally impossible so there’s no need for them to play on women’s teams. Women had to fight very hard to have their own sorts, we’re entitled to keep them for ourselves and not have them used as a male validation tool.

User339406 · 24/03/2023 14:02

Mommymoments · 24/03/2023 13:46

Absolutely sports bodies need to be doing all they can to keep teenage girls active in sports. They don't give a hoot & the GAA are actually sponsored by a pharmaceutical company which produces hormone blockers & other trans medicines.. Money always talks with the GAA.

I agree. The more I think about this the more pissed off I get.

Our club has a really strong girls team, I love watching them play with such confidence and energy, so comfortable and active in their bodies. I was never like that at their age, I wasn't involved in any sport, I was so uncomfortable with my body.

If this man puts even one girl off playing then that makes me so mad.

BoogieFun · 24/03/2023 14:05

Curiosity101 · 24/03/2023 13:17

It all feels very much like a grey area to me. At what part are you womanly enough to play with biological women? I don't have a strong enough opinion either way on it because I know men that have transitioned or are transitioning who I would not want to be excluded, but equally appreciate that a man could claim to be transgender for nefarious reasons and that in sports this definitely could confer some unfair advantages to the person who has transitioned.

If the issue was just physical safety in a contact sport then theoretically it'd be sensible to impose size limits (upper and lower) or introduce weight categories similar to boxing? Cause you could still have large biological women playing on teams with very small biological women.

It's not a grey area at all.

There's no such thing as 'what's womanly enough'. It's insane that as a society we're having to say a woman isn't anything other than the obvious female sex that has existed since the dawn of time.

There's women and trans-women, who are biologically male. That's it. They're not the same. They're never to be considered as the same because they're not.

There's no such thing as 'what's womanly enough' when it comes to trans-women because they will never be womanly enough to be considered as women. Because they are not, never have been and never will be women.

They're trans-women. I respect their rights to be who they want to be and would not want them to be abused or discriminate, d against.

But they're not women. They're trans-women. For some reason in the last decade trans-woman became offensive and it was biological women that should no longer be considered women but 'cis'.

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