Do I have to accept that it is in fact me that’s the issue?

[MumsTheIssue]

DC is 8, Y4. This has been going on since Y2.

Perfect at school, no behaviour issues at all, no issues with academics, small but close group of friends. Quite quiet but will speak when spoken to and in the last few months growing in confidence. Eats fine.

ExH says they’re perfect there, quiet but easy going and will chat when wants to. Eats fine.

At home they’re the complete opposite:

• Violence aimed at me, repeatedly no matter what I do they keep going for up to 3 hours – if I ignore it carries on, if I try and tell them off it carries on, if I change rooms they follow me, if I put them into a different room they laugh and come back, if I talk to them they laugh and carry on

• Will not eat unless it's on a specific plate or bowl

• Does not respond to praise

• Does not respond to being given an instruction such as “Can you tidy up your toys please?” if I repeat it more firmly “Tidy up toys please” they still ignore me – if I take all their toys away they just shrug, if I stop screen time (they can earn 4 hours to be used at the weekend) they just shrug, if I stop them going to parties/activities etc. they just shrug and say they don’t care.

• I literally cannot punish them as they just don’t care. They won’t stay in timeout/a spot if they’re being violent towards me, I have tried returning them but they just laugh and think it’s a game

• Tells me they hate me regularly and they are going to live with their dad as soon as they’re old enough (they see him EOWend for 1 night only, never for school runs or appointments or anything else “boring”) but only when in a violent rage, when calm they say the love me a lot but never that they want to live with me, but they also don't say they want to live with ExH either

• School refuses – we’re regularly late for school but as soon as we’re there it’s like a lightbulb and they’re suddenly all sweetness and light

• Will not go to sleep – returning them to bed is a game again, they then fall asleep in class

What I’ve tried:

• A meeting with school for repeated lateness and falling asleep in class – they blamed me, told me to get DC up earlier (I can’t get them up any earlier, we’re already up at 6am, and they go to bed at 7.30pm) and said I needed to be “More persistent” with returning them to bed, even though DC told them it’s a fun game. They’ve told me they’ll refer it to Social Services if it keeps happening. I asked for a CAMHS referral to rule out SN and was told that DC doesn’t meet the criteria

• Took them to a private GP to rule out a medical cause – got brushed off and told it’s schools problem without them even checking DCs ears or any kind of examination - yes I demanded my money back, I was expecting at least a basic examination so I know that DC is healthy, I wasn’t demanding to the GP, I just expected a check of the ears, throat, chest (maybe nose), and maybe a basic urine test – my grandparents paid for this and where willing to pay for anything above that if the GP felt it necessary but I wasn’t even given any advice just told it’s behavioural and schools problem

• Spoke to someone for a private diagnosis of SN and told that I need schools backing for them to do so I can’t go down that route

• Took them to a private physio when they complained of pain (again my Grandparents paid for this) – who was very very good, but couldn’t find a physical issue and just advised me to get some properly fitted shoes for DC (which I did and hasn’t improved the behaviour at home)

I feel like I’m going mad. I’m looking into an EHCNA, but Sendiass have said if school are saying it’s a home problem and ExH is saying he has no issues with DC there then it will be an uphill battle that may not be won. I’m considering asking for a course of private play therapy from my grandparents, but I don’t want to keep taking money off them if I can help it.

Do I just accept I’m the issue? And if so how do I change? ExH will not parent full time so I have to. So it’s not an option for me to give in or give DC up though at times I have considered it

Does this sound familiar to anyone? Being fine at school and the NRPs but then coming home and just exploding. DC is always sorry but can’t seem to explain what happens when they’re in those moods. It’s not all bad, but I am so exhausted and feel like I can’t relax in case DC explodes.

I think she was about 9.

Can't remember the exact issue, she was pretty headstrong and didn't do as she was told on something, then wouldn't back down.

Really simple. She could have had everything back at any time, if she did it and apologised. She lasted two days.

Never even had to do it again, just mention it and she knew we were serious.

It's called discipline. 😂

Their child behaved badly enough to warrant being kept in an empty room for two days apparently.

I am surprised @ColonelDax that you have adult children and yet you still look back positively on the time when you “disciplined” your 9 year old book loving daughter from reading for 2 days, and pulled out all her special bits and pieces from her room so that the only thing left was her bed so that she was “effectively in solitary confinement”.

Would you urge your daughter to do this to if/when you have a 9 year old grand daughter? @ColonelDax

It's called discipline. 😂

I can think of another word for it.

Begins with a C

What an awful way to try and teach a child.

Even murderers in high security prisons are allowed books so whatever she did must have been bloody awful. I blame the parents.

@ColonelDax can remember the punishment very clearly (and fondly by the sounds of it)

but she can’t actually remember what her daughter did to deserve this punishment

I find that quite interesting

Thanks everyone, will definitely look at these issues.

ExH will not be involved more, no matter what I do, he's been offered multiple times via my solicitor to his, mediation and even court he just does not want DC more.

DC doesn't respond to praise, I can say "You did very well drawing that picture" and they'll either change the subject or just carry on with what they're doing.

I did say it wasn't all bad, we do spend a lot of time 1-1. We go to the library and read once a week together, we swim, we cook or bake at home. I try and play with DC when they're playing on the floor but they don't really like it, so I just chat to them while they play, we watch films at home and at the cinema etc. We do lots together and I do value those times, it just seems to be after school and after seeing ExH they just are violent.

They can be very affectionate and loving towards me though, especially after a violent outbrust, they come to me and say sorry and hug me. And I always kiss them goodnight and say I love them.

Holidays are a strange one, sometimes they go to holiday club and are fine after, other times they come home and be violent, again they last a similar amount of time.

Sleep is another strange one. No matter what time I put them to bed they take 1-2 hours to fall asleep, so an 8.30pm bedtime could mean they're awake until 10.30pm - which is my bedtime. At least with 7.30pm if they fall asleep around 9.30 I have an hour to myself before I also go to bed. They get up and come out of their room to chat to me, and find it funny when I return them to bed. Just ignoring them has no affect they still come out of their room.

I also work, I did work 3 days but had to spread my hours avross 5 days instead to see if DC was better when not in ASC (which they were slightly) but it does increase my feelings of no rest or break for myself because between work and looking after DC I'm hardly alone.

Read the explosive child by Ross W Green, he also has lots of podcasts out too. Coming from another mom with similar issues, it’s really eye opening, most of the traits you mentioned are discussed in this book.

Like I said, she could have had them back at any time.

Really simple. She could have had everything back at any time, if she did it and apologised. She lasted two days.

Your daughter is not autistic.

You do that with a child with autism there is a risk that the behaviour escalates. Particularly if the punishment is for something out of their control like the 'bottle of coke effect' of acting up out of school.

Far better parenting involves understanding the child's reasons for the bad behaviour, which is what the OP is trying to do but is being let down by both the school and her ExP. These are things that are familiar to many of us.

I'd put money on the issue being that something is going on in school and / or at the ExP that the child is unable to express, it doesn't have to be anything major, it could just be that the environment is challenging to the child. This is why it is in everyone's best interests to investigate the possibility of autism rather than your suggestion which is a route to escalation of problems at home and destroy the child's mental health.

Even if the child is not autistic, parenting by removing books until you get compliance would rarely (never) be recommended). Behaviour is a form of communication. Solving it involves listening to the child.

It is so hard to tell, and I am not a clinician. However, I have worked with other agencies, including social care.

Firstly, the violence DC shows was there any aggression, verbal or physical, in your marriage? I ask because when a child this young gets physical to just one parent, it can be an indication that they have seen that parent hit by others? If so, then the play therapy route might be a good idea.

Secondly, ask social car if they are willing to put you on a parenting cause. Again, I have no judgement, I've done a private parenting cause because my parenting style does not work well for my DCs personality. My husband's approach of shouting at him when he crossed a line worked well (not abusive but triggers me) but it doesn't work for me as im not loud enough. So, i did a parenting course to learn a different approach. If you want a free taster, try this guy: fb.watch/aBGpEOvcGf/ I did a free masterclass, and it worked great. Never bothered to pay for his expensive subscription because it was enough. I've actually used his boundaries approach on adults!

Thirdly, I'd a child's behaviour us different at school it can be masking. Some children who are neuro' diverse can comply with school but find it emotionally and cognitively draining. Might be why they fall asleep at school. It also means that they store up their frustrations and take it out on the person they feel safest with.

Remember that last bit, saying hurtful things and lashing put often happens towards the parent they trust to love them no matter what. They don't act out for the other parent because they feel that love is unconditional (again, not every time but most of the time).

Have you noticed anything that makes it worse, or better?

DS 8 can be a bit like this but he does care about his things and his screen time so I have that lever (even when he says he doesn't care). He has a sensory processing disorder and otherwise may be ND or may be just very willful and difficult!

For example, things that trigger him;

Transitions of any kind (we had a tough time on the run up to kindergarten and again when starting first grade, but it can just be needing to leave the house or the museum or whatever).

Too much screen time. Even though he mostly watches nature documentaries, we see noticeably improved behavior when he doesn't have it.

Feeling out of control.

Things that make it better:
A shared moment of humor, deflecting the tension with laughter
Making an effort to be especially kind and loving to him
Figuring out what is bothering him and finding a compromise solution.

He finds it difficult to express what he is feeling and why so there is a lot of guesswork. We are working on that with a behavioral therapist. (We are in the US where it seems like there's therapy for anything!)

I agree with pp who said look into parenting styles that work for ND kids as they can work for other kids too.

If you can identify some of the triggers you may be able to stop some of the extreme behaviors before they start fully.

The Explosive Child is worth a read in that context.

@MumsTheIssue what are they like on weekends and holiday days where they've just been with you, no school, Dad or holiday club?

I would be seeking assessment for autism as your first post could have been written by most of the parents on this forum who've got autistic kids, especially girls. I'd also seek an ADHD assessment as my DS has autism and ADHD and the problems you describe around sleep at night and falling asleep in school are him to a tee. But that was fixed once he started taking ADHD medication.

I am sorry if this has been spoken about above, but I don't have time now to read it all ,but really wanted to give my thoughts, as this sounds so much like my daughter diagnosed with PDA. - down to not doing well with praise and all the other stuff. I paid for a private diagnosis by an expert in girls with complex presentations who is also high up in NHS. It is common that they become unable to mask a little older than your daughter so things can get worse re school attendance etc. There is a good facebook group called Not fine in School. If you don't know about PDA worth reading the PDA society website too. It's sounds very tough for her and you and you could do with support.

"Your daughter is not autistic"

And we don't know the OPs child is either off the back of this thread alone. The fact the school who see them every day don't think she is is pretty telling.

Like I said, well behaved in every environment except one, it's far more likely to be the environment than the child.

I'm not saying this to be nasty to the OP, just to add some balance and a more reasonable and likely option than 'it must be autism'. 🙄

And we don't know the OPs child is either off the back of this thread alone. The fact the school who see them every day don't think she is is pretty telling.

Like I said, well behaved in every environment except one, it's far more likely to be the environment than the child.

They said that about my child too. And probably loads more of us on here. Why? Because if they admit a child is not fine in school it costs £££.

A school telling a parent that a child is fine at school is not an indicator that a child is neurotypical. Not by a long shot. Nor is it only presenting at home.

What are your qualifications in child behaviour and/ or Neurodiversity by the way @ColonelDax ? You seem quite adamant that masking and the bottle of coke effect do not exist (or are very rare) when both of these are widely recognised by HCPs?

I'm not doubting them, I'm applying Occam's razor that the simpler and more common explanation is the most likely.

Yes I think you are right. So so hard for the OP and I hope she can get some support.

Would you urge your daughter to do this to if/when you have a 9 year old grand daughter? @ColonelDax

It's the sort of thing where daughter will use nanna and grandad as a threat to behave. Like the boogyman.

'be good or nanna and granda will lock you in a bedroom like they did to me..m

I'm sorry you are going through this. I've been following this lady on Instagram fro quite some time and she has some really interesting ideas, which potentially break the cycle you are in. Not easy and sounds like it will take time, but may be worth considering.
instagram.com/peaceandparenting?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Your child could be autistic, it's certainly worth pushing for investigation.

My instinct says it's more about feeling rejected by their feckless dad.

They know they have to behave at school, and they can't play up with dad in case he just stops seeing them. The only place to let loose all these emotions is with mum.

Probably an element of testing you too. Trying to figure out if you'll always be there no matter how naughty they are.

I'm so angry at your exH, is he so thick he can't see the damage he's doing or does he just not care?

@ColonelDax ?

Even if the child is not autistic, which is fairly unlikely given the explanation the OP has given of her child's behaviours, trying to understand why they are behaving the way they are rather than punishing them based on assumptions is generally preferred these days rather than removing things until they apologise when they don't necessarily understand what they have done wrong.

But I'm not going to convince you.

There are threads where autism is suggested and I think posters are quite to 'pathologise'. In this situation thought there are red flags for autism or other mental health issues which would mean that the OP is likely to make things worse for her child and herself if she doesn't get to the bottom of the cause of the behaviours.

He feels safe enough with you to de-mask.
I suspect autism.
It is hard for you I’m sure, but remember he’s like this with you because you’re his safe space.