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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not know what I want my title to be?

270 replies

KeithBurtons · 13/03/2023 16:44

Divorced 6 years, kept surname but don't really want to be known as Mrs any more. I'd like to put some distance between my marriage and who I am now but my options are limited:

Mrs- presumption that I am married or widowed
Miss- presumption that I've never been married
Ms- presumption that I'm divorced (I know that this theoretically is the option that doesn't tell the reader anything about marital status but a straw poll of 15 friends tells me that nobody knows a woman who has never been married that uses Ms, all the Ms they know are divorced)

Mx- suggests nothing about marital status but presumption that I am transgender.

I don't want to be Mrs Burtons any more but none of the other options are any better really- I'm sort of erring towards Miss but why should my title give any indication of my marital status? It really feels completely irrelevant and it's pissing me right off. On the other hand, if it is irrelevant why do I want to get away from being Mrs so much??

YABU- you're overthinking this
YANBU- I can see why you're annoyed

OP posts:
GandhiDeclaredWarOnYou · 18/03/2023 13:06

I’ve been a Ms since I was old enough to choose. I’m still Ms and I’ve been married for decades.

SerafinasGoose · 18/03/2023 13:07

RosaBonheur · 18/03/2023 11:37

I note that you ignored the next part of my post, where I described overhearing a conversation where some people were doing exactly that.

I'm not saying I agree with their attitudes. Quite obviously, I disagree with them. And I want to make it more difficult for them to express those kinds of opinions about women, by getting rid of titles which tell nosy randoms whether you are married or not.

Every woman who goes by either Miss or Mrs is not only exposing herself to having those kinds of value judgements made about her personally, but perpetuating a system where it is easy to make those kinds of judgements about women you don't know, which in turn normalises that kind of behaviour.

I take your point. But I happen to think there are huge disclaimers that come with this observation; tantamount to 'other women will judge you'. This tends to imply that it's down to women to strongarm ourselves from patronizing assumptions emanating from other women about their sexual status.

The Ms/Mrs/Ms distinction is meaningless; a pointless tilting at windmills (but what that nonetheless takes up a lot of column-space on this site). It isn't even a distinction: all three are truncations of the same word of 'mistress'. I'm not sure that the onus is on me, as an individual, to prevent casual or professional acquaintances from engaging in idle, inquisitive and prejudicial tattle about my sexual status.

This throws us back in the predicament of some women wanting to put other women back in their boxes. My MiL persists in addressing me as Mrs Hisname. It's a typically passive-aggressive way of telling me she disagrees with my personal preferences of identity; a decision which affects her not one iota. I've lost count of the number of times I've been told by other women that they're 'proud' to have taken their husbands' names and that my name isn't actually my own possession; it belongs to my father. Not the case: it's mine. Names are not on loan to women from men.

A huge problem here seems to be the outsized desire some women have to force their preferences onto others. A case in point being the female anti-suffragists, who could simply have chosen to exercise their right not to vote if they preferred to have their husbands' votes speak for them. This wasn't enough - they wanted the entire remainder of the female populace to be denied the right to a democratic voice as well. This is not dissimilar to the women of today who like to tell others that a family name is never her rightful possession.

This has turned into a long screed of text; a sort of thinking aloud in response to the points you've written, @RosaBonheur (and thank you for setting me thinking). In sum, as a TLDR, I agree women are some of the worst perpetuators of archaic patriarchal traditions, and often see any digression from their own views on these matters as some kind of personal affront.

Where we may digress is on the point that it remains other women's responsibility to deflect a frustrating set of strictures which never affect men in the least, and on which men are rarely heard to pontificate. FWIW, I am always 'Dr' or 'Ms'. I'm also perplexed, to to mention wearied, by the tedious pushback I've received for daring to retain my own family name and insisting it forms part of my DC's.

It's come as quite the surprise that anyone other than me would even remotely care.

KievsOutTheOven · 18/03/2023 13:14

RosaBonheur · 18/03/2023 12:48

Well this all smacks of "I'm not married because I'm young and cool and feminist but also look everyone, I'm definitely not sad and single! Look at my sparkly ring!"

Out of interest, does your partner wear a ring on his finger to signal to other women that he belongs to you and is no longer on the market?

I'm guessing that he doesn't, and also that his title is Mr, which allows him to go about his life without strangers making judgements about his marital status, because they don't know what it is. If only there was some way women could do that too.

He wears a ring I bought him on one of his ring fingers, I don’t know what one. I can certainly check later!

Bamboux · 18/03/2023 13:17

KievsOutTheOven · 18/03/2023 13:04

I am engaged because we got engaged with the view to get married, started looking at venues (even took family) before deciding that actually, we were perfectly happy with the way things were, and our reasons for marriage were because society places more value on a married couple then an unmarried couple. We decided we didn’t really care what the general public thought of our relationship.

And my ring isn’t important to me for that reason. It’s important because it was a kind gift that someone put a lot of time and effort into choosing. And also it’s pretty.

Yeah. No. You called it an engagement ring.

Not a 'pretty sparkly gift that I wear every day because someone chose it for me which I just can't think of anything else to do with except for wearing every day on the finger where women wear engagement rings and it's not important to me what anyone thinks of our relationship except that I specifically mentioned that I wear an engagement ring so that my students know I'm engaged'

I mean, what an incoherent, inconsistent load of rubbish.

It's not an engagement ring if you're not engaged to be married.

You don't care what anyone thinks, but you display pictures of your partner and children and wear an engagement ring (your name for it) so that everyone knows you're not a sad single spinster.

None of this makes any sense at all. What a farrago.

Bamboux · 18/03/2023 13:21

And they know about my partner too because he’s in a few of those pictures, I wear an engagement ring, and I’ll mention him in class if it’s relevant.

was what you said. Before deciding that actually it wasn't an engagement ring at all, just a random piece of jewellery that you wear all the time on your ring finger.

Funny. You are literally my exact opposite. I got married without telling anyone because I genuinely don't give a toss what anyone thinks of our relationship, and I don't wear any rings o advertise that fact because I, in fact, don't mind at all if people think I'm single, divorced, whatever.

MarshaBradyo · 18/03/2023 13:27

Bamboux · 18/03/2023 13:21

And they know about my partner too because he’s in a few of those pictures, I wear an engagement ring, and I’ll mention him in class if it’s relevant.

was what you said. Before deciding that actually it wasn't an engagement ring at all, just a random piece of jewellery that you wear all the time on your ring finger.

Funny. You are literally my exact opposite. I got married without telling anyone because I genuinely don't give a toss what anyone thinks of our relationship, and I don't wear any rings o advertise that fact because I, in fact, don't mind at all if people think I'm single, divorced, whatever.

I do wear w / e rings but beyond that it’s not really relevant, say in a work situation. And I would prefer not to have a title at all.

KievsOutTheOven · 18/03/2023 13:39

Bamboux · 18/03/2023 13:17

Yeah. No. You called it an engagement ring.

Not a 'pretty sparkly gift that I wear every day because someone chose it for me which I just can't think of anything else to do with except for wearing every day on the finger where women wear engagement rings and it's not important to me what anyone thinks of our relationship except that I specifically mentioned that I wear an engagement ring so that my students know I'm engaged'

I mean, what an incoherent, inconsistent load of rubbish.

It's not an engagement ring if you're not engaged to be married.

You don't care what anyone thinks, but you display pictures of your partner and children and wear an engagement ring (your name for it) so that everyone knows you're not a sad single spinster.

None of this makes any sense at all. What a farrago.

You are missing the part where we got engaged really young with the view to get married. It was bought as an engagement ring. It’s meaning changed in the decade since we got engaged. What would you prefer I describe it as? It is the ring that we got for our engagement. It’s still my engagement ring; whether we get married or not. If we had split before our engagement; would it no longer be an engagement ring? Well of course it would.

I’ve got pictures of my children in my classroom because I spend significant amounts of time there and I miss my family when at work. I’ve got pictures of them at home too.

Surely you can accept that people decorate their desk area with things that are meaningful to them; like photos of their family and artwork their kids have drawn? I’ve also got artwork the children have drawn me; photos of previous classes and so on displayed in my class.

And yes, I mention him in class when it’s relevant. Not sure why you find that weird? Teachers are people too; and at times things we have experienced are relevant to the curriculum - can’t say too much without it being identifiable but he has experienced which are relevant to the subject I teach, and I use his photographs with him in them to demonstrate some things.

RosaBonheur · 18/03/2023 13:57

KievsOutTheOven · 18/03/2023 13:39

You are missing the part where we got engaged really young with the view to get married. It was bought as an engagement ring. It’s meaning changed in the decade since we got engaged. What would you prefer I describe it as? It is the ring that we got for our engagement. It’s still my engagement ring; whether we get married or not. If we had split before our engagement; would it no longer be an engagement ring? Well of course it would.

I’ve got pictures of my children in my classroom because I spend significant amounts of time there and I miss my family when at work. I’ve got pictures of them at home too.

Surely you can accept that people decorate their desk area with things that are meaningful to them; like photos of their family and artwork their kids have drawn? I’ve also got artwork the children have drawn me; photos of previous classes and so on displayed in my class.

And yes, I mention him in class when it’s relevant. Not sure why you find that weird? Teachers are people too; and at times things we have experienced are relevant to the curriculum - can’t say too much without it being identifiable but he has experienced which are relevant to the subject I teach, and I use his photographs with him in them to demonstrate some things.

So, if you're a Miss who wears a ring, talks about her male partner and has pictures of her children on her desk, why do you think the students you teach are likely to see you as any more young and cool than a female teacher the same age as you - or younger even - who does the same things but is married and uses the title Mrs?

Burgoo · 18/03/2023 13:59

Is this REALLY a thing? I mean seriously?

I am a man who married a woman and took her surname. This isn't the 1800s!

Ponderingwindow · 18/03/2023 14:15

Kievs, I really hope you aren’t trying to pass these ideas on to your students. Marriage is a financial contract that mitigates risk to the woman who goes through pregnancy to produce children for the couple. Even if she is the higher earner, sharing that risk is important.

you are also doing an excellent job of reinforcing a stereotype I have that only teachers use Miss and that they do so without thinking through the greater societal impact of their choice.

RosaBonheur · 18/03/2023 14:16

SerafinasGoose · 18/03/2023 13:07

I take your point. But I happen to think there are huge disclaimers that come with this observation; tantamount to 'other women will judge you'. This tends to imply that it's down to women to strongarm ourselves from patronizing assumptions emanating from other women about their sexual status.

The Ms/Mrs/Ms distinction is meaningless; a pointless tilting at windmills (but what that nonetheless takes up a lot of column-space on this site). It isn't even a distinction: all three are truncations of the same word of 'mistress'. I'm not sure that the onus is on me, as an individual, to prevent casual or professional acquaintances from engaging in idle, inquisitive and prejudicial tattle about my sexual status.

This throws us back in the predicament of some women wanting to put other women back in their boxes. My MiL persists in addressing me as Mrs Hisname. It's a typically passive-aggressive way of telling me she disagrees with my personal preferences of identity; a decision which affects her not one iota. I've lost count of the number of times I've been told by other women that they're 'proud' to have taken their husbands' names and that my name isn't actually my own possession; it belongs to my father. Not the case: it's mine. Names are not on loan to women from men.

A huge problem here seems to be the outsized desire some women have to force their preferences onto others. A case in point being the female anti-suffragists, who could simply have chosen to exercise their right not to vote if they preferred to have their husbands' votes speak for them. This wasn't enough - they wanted the entire remainder of the female populace to be denied the right to a democratic voice as well. This is not dissimilar to the women of today who like to tell others that a family name is never her rightful possession.

This has turned into a long screed of text; a sort of thinking aloud in response to the points you've written, @RosaBonheur (and thank you for setting me thinking). In sum, as a TLDR, I agree women are some of the worst perpetuators of archaic patriarchal traditions, and often see any digression from their own views on these matters as some kind of personal affront.

Where we may digress is on the point that it remains other women's responsibility to deflect a frustrating set of strictures which never affect men in the least, and on which men are rarely heard to pontificate. FWIW, I am always 'Dr' or 'Ms'. I'm also perplexed, to to mention wearied, by the tedious pushback I've received for daring to retain my own family name and insisting it forms part of my DC's.

It's come as quite the surprise that anyone other than me would even remotely care.

I think it's definitely fair to say that we women are our own worst enemies at times and judge each other at least as much as men judge us, probably more so.

And you're absolutely right that other women will judge us for the choices we make regarding marriage, whether that is getting married too young, getting married too old, having children before getting married, not getting married at all, taking our husbands' surnames, not taking our husbands' surnames, calling ourselves Mrs, calling ourselves Ms, leaving the bastard, not leaving the bastard, changing our names or not changing our names back when we leave the bastard. The same way SAHMs and mothers who work outside the home are often bitterly judgmental of each other.

I do think a huge part of it is women wanting the way they personally live their lives - whether by accident or by choice - to be perceived as being the best way to live. Nobody wants to be pitied.

When I was on the train that day and I overheard a much loved teacher with a career spanning 30 years being reduced to an object of pity because she "deserved to be a Mrs, not a Miss", I realised that society absolutely will judge women based on our perceived marital status, whether we like it or not.

And women know this.@KievsOutTheOven knows this, because she is trying to control how she is judged based on her marital status. She doesn't want to call herself Mrs because she's not married, she doesn't want to call herself Ms for other reasons, so she calls herself Miss but publicly displays trappings of her long term monogamous lifestyle such as an engagement ring and evidence of her male partner and children. She wants to be a Miss, but only the young and cool kind of Miss, or failing that the feminist kind who rejects the institution of marriage, not the sad spinster kind.

You're right that we can't tell women what titles to use. At my secondary school, it was decided - at some point in the 1980s, I believe - that male teachers would be "Sir" and female teachers would be "Madam", because using "Miss" to refer to female teachers is a throwback from the time when only unmarried women were teachers because women were expected to give up work and keep house for their husbands upon marriage. We still knew whether someone was Miss Brown or Mrs Smith, but we called them all "Madam". The school did what it could, without dictating what titles women used to refer to themselves.

Personally I think the reason women still cling to these titles is because being married is a status symbol. When you're young, or at least not yet too middle aged to keep kidding yourself that you're young, you can be Miss in a young and cool way. But past a certain age, being Mrs confers greater social status.

It's spelled out explicitly in Pride and Prejudice, when the newly married Lydia Wickham, saved from perpetual shame by the skin of her teeth only thanks to the machinations of Mr Darcy, points out that she, as Mrs Wickham, now outranks her eldest sister, Miss Bennett. It's spelled out even more explicitly in Emma, with the constant references to "poor Miss Bates". And God forbid you ever become a Miss Havisham! We read and watch these stories and think it's a good thing society has move on since then. And it has, in the sense that you aren't doomed to a life of poverty if you can't find a man to marry you before your father dies and his estate is entailed to some distant male cousin. But I think the social cachet that comes with being a married woman still remains, which is why women still cling to these titles and why some women will even update their Facebook profiles to say "Sarah Husbandsname" in the middle of their own wedding receptions.

Unfortunately, whilst most women continue to cling to these titles and the status they believe they confer, our marital status and personal lives will continue to be considered public property, for any nosy randomer to speculate about to their heart's content.

Whilst men, of course, get to live free from all this crap.

It's almost worth doing a PhD at this point just to become Dr.

honeylulu · 18/03/2023 14:31

I am engaged because we got engaged with the view to get married But you're no longer engaged so it's no longer an engagement ring. It's just a ring.

RosaBonheur · 18/03/2023 14:31

Ponderingwindow · 18/03/2023 14:15

Kievs, I really hope you aren’t trying to pass these ideas on to your students. Marriage is a financial contract that mitigates risk to the woman who goes through pregnancy to produce children for the couple. Even if she is the higher earner, sharing that risk is important.

you are also doing an excellent job of reinforcing a stereotype I have that only teachers use Miss and that they do so without thinking through the greater societal impact of their choice.

This is a really good point, although not sure what can really be done about it.

Female students who consider that there is no social stigma to being an unmarried mother anymore - look, even their cool teacher is one! - will most likely not make the distinction between being an unmarried mother who is financially independent and could support herself if her relationship ended, and an unmarried mother who is entirely dependent on the goodwill of her male partner and therefore hugely vulnerable.

Children really should be taught basic financial management, including the consequences of getting married or not getting married. But of course, if you teach girls not to have children before getting married because if the relationship ends they won't be entitled to any of their partner's money, you'll also be teaching boys not to get married because if they get divorced their wives will be entitled to half their money. Assuming any of them are paying attention, which, to be fair, they probably won't be.

Bamboux · 18/03/2023 14:54

RosaBonheur · 18/03/2023 14:16

I think it's definitely fair to say that we women are our own worst enemies at times and judge each other at least as much as men judge us, probably more so.

And you're absolutely right that other women will judge us for the choices we make regarding marriage, whether that is getting married too young, getting married too old, having children before getting married, not getting married at all, taking our husbands' surnames, not taking our husbands' surnames, calling ourselves Mrs, calling ourselves Ms, leaving the bastard, not leaving the bastard, changing our names or not changing our names back when we leave the bastard. The same way SAHMs and mothers who work outside the home are often bitterly judgmental of each other.

I do think a huge part of it is women wanting the way they personally live their lives - whether by accident or by choice - to be perceived as being the best way to live. Nobody wants to be pitied.

When I was on the train that day and I overheard a much loved teacher with a career spanning 30 years being reduced to an object of pity because she "deserved to be a Mrs, not a Miss", I realised that society absolutely will judge women based on our perceived marital status, whether we like it or not.

And women know this.@KievsOutTheOven knows this, because she is trying to control how she is judged based on her marital status. She doesn't want to call herself Mrs because she's not married, she doesn't want to call herself Ms for other reasons, so she calls herself Miss but publicly displays trappings of her long term monogamous lifestyle such as an engagement ring and evidence of her male partner and children. She wants to be a Miss, but only the young and cool kind of Miss, or failing that the feminist kind who rejects the institution of marriage, not the sad spinster kind.

You're right that we can't tell women what titles to use. At my secondary school, it was decided - at some point in the 1980s, I believe - that male teachers would be "Sir" and female teachers would be "Madam", because using "Miss" to refer to female teachers is a throwback from the time when only unmarried women were teachers because women were expected to give up work and keep house for their husbands upon marriage. We still knew whether someone was Miss Brown or Mrs Smith, but we called them all "Madam". The school did what it could, without dictating what titles women used to refer to themselves.

Personally I think the reason women still cling to these titles is because being married is a status symbol. When you're young, or at least not yet too middle aged to keep kidding yourself that you're young, you can be Miss in a young and cool way. But past a certain age, being Mrs confers greater social status.

It's spelled out explicitly in Pride and Prejudice, when the newly married Lydia Wickham, saved from perpetual shame by the skin of her teeth only thanks to the machinations of Mr Darcy, points out that she, as Mrs Wickham, now outranks her eldest sister, Miss Bennett. It's spelled out even more explicitly in Emma, with the constant references to "poor Miss Bates". And God forbid you ever become a Miss Havisham! We read and watch these stories and think it's a good thing society has move on since then. And it has, in the sense that you aren't doomed to a life of poverty if you can't find a man to marry you before your father dies and his estate is entailed to some distant male cousin. But I think the social cachet that comes with being a married woman still remains, which is why women still cling to these titles and why some women will even update their Facebook profiles to say "Sarah Husbandsname" in the middle of their own wedding receptions.

Unfortunately, whilst most women continue to cling to these titles and the status they believe they confer, our marital status and personal lives will continue to be considered public property, for any nosy randomer to speculate about to their heart's content.

Whilst men, of course, get to live free from all this crap.

It's almost worth doing a PhD at this point just to become Dr.

I do have a PhD and am a Dr, but use Ms quite often too.

The idea of wearing an engagement ring to prove to other people all the time that A MAN WANTS YOU SO MUCH HE BUYS YOU SPARKLY PWITTY FINGS while simultaneously rejecting the valuable financial and legal protections of a marriage contract... and teaching young people. I mean fuck me, no wonder education is such a confused mess.

Bamboux · 18/03/2023 14:57

@KievsOutTheOven

If we had split before our engagement; would it no longer be an engagement ring? Well of course it would.

you're saying that even if a relationship had ended, you would continue to wear that ring on your ring finger and call it an engagement ring?

even though you weren't even in a relationship with that person, let alone intending to marry them?

wow. That's properly insane. It really is very, very, very important to you to display your male approval, huh?

Cosyblankets · 18/03/2023 15:00

KievsOutTheOven · 18/03/2023 07:52

As a teacher, I disagree. My jobs on the line if more people don’t choose my subject (I’m speaking literally here - we have too many staff in my subject for current uptake and I’m the last one through the door!)

And as a teacher I would say trying to look cool is everything that's wrong with education. Lessons can be interesting without you needing to be down with the kids .

RosaBonheur · 18/03/2023 15:09

Cosyblankets · 18/03/2023 15:00

And as a teacher I would say trying to look cool is everything that's wrong with education. Lessons can be interesting without you needing to be down with the kids .

I agree. If looking cool was the most important quality in a teacher, experience would be worth nothing and NQTs would get paid more than teachers who'd been doing the job for 40 years.

But even if looking cool was really the main thing, it is utterly, utterly bonkers for a woman in her mid 30s who is in a long term relationship with a man, wears a ring on her finger and has children (in the plural) to believe that being called Miss rather than Mrs makes her appear young and cool to students and will influence them to choose her subject, making her job more secure.

She cannot possibly actually believe that.

mdh2020 · 18/03/2023 15:46

I’m married and switched to Ms once it came into use. Now I use Dr (I have a PhD) and love correcting people, especially when they call me Misses.

KeithBurtons · 21/03/2023 09:57

Lots of discussion and food for thought here. The 70’s called and wanted my perception that Ms was only for divorcees back. Thanks for the challenge everyone.

So Ms Burtons it is.

OP posts:
RosaBonheur · 21/03/2023 10:26

KeithBurtons · 21/03/2023 09:57

Lots of discussion and food for thought here. The 70’s called and wanted my perception that Ms was only for divorcees back. Thanks for the challenge everyone.

So Ms Burtons it is.

Hurrah!

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