To not know what I want my title to be?

[KeithBurtons]

Divorced 6 years, kept surname but don't really want to be known as Mrs any more. I'd like to put some distance between my marriage and who I am now but my options are limited:

Mrs- presumption that I am married or widowed
Miss- presumption that I've never been married
Ms- presumption that I'm divorced (I know that this theoretically is the option that doesn't tell the reader anything about marital status but a straw poll of 15 friends tells me that nobody knows a woman who has never been married that uses Ms, all the Ms they know are divorced)

Mx- suggests nothing about marital status but presumption that I am transgender.

I don't want to be Mrs Burtons any more but none of the other options are any better really- I'm sort of erring towards Miss but why should my title give any indication of my marital status? It really feels completely irrelevant and it's pissing me right off. On the other hand, if it is irrelevant why do I want to get away from being Mrs so much??

YABU- you're overthinking this
YANBU- I can see why you're annoyed

I'm Ms.
Married. Not divorced from this husband.

Right, well I'll take your word for that stuff, but one day you will no longer be able to pass for "young" and then what will you do?

Do you think the male teachers in your school are bemoaning the fact that they don't have special titles to distinguish the unmarried ones from the married ones and so the kids have no way of knowing whether they are young and cool or not? Of course not.

Do you think they are desperately clinging to the last few years when they believe they are thought of as young and cool by the kids because in a few years' time they will be past it and no longer able to command respect?

Of course not. They're probably planning to be senior management by then.

The current head teacher of my old secondary school is a guy who was in the year above me. He was appointed head teacher at the age of 35 and is now 38. He was always seen as young and cool despite the fact that everyone knew he was married with kids.

Women can't win, can they?

If you're young and cool and sexy then it's fun to be a Miss at least for now, because surely you will be snapped up by a man before too long. Then if you get married, it's "Yay! Well done you! You bagged a husband!" but also, "You can't be young and cool anymore because being a Mrs is kind of middle-aged." And yet, if you don't get married by the time your sell-by date comes around and you're still a Miss, you become a pathetic Miss Bates type character who couldn't find a man to take her on.

It's archaic. There's so much misogyny and ageism in this.

The least we can do, together, as women, is combat one source of it by getting rid of "Miss" and "Mrs" and just having one neutral title to refer to adult women.

Change it to Ms on the grounds that your marital status is no one's business, particularly not the kids you teach.

I would go for Ms. I usually choose this, even though never divorced.

I thought Ms was for any adult female.

By the time I no longer pass for “young” I’ll no longer be “last in the door” and my job won’t be on the line any more, so it won’t be a concern.

And I take your point about it being sexist that this isn’t the same for men. But I’m not a man. I’m a woman. It’s well documented that a woman needs to work harder in the classroom to have the same physical presence as a man - stature, tone of voice etc. - however I’ve got “workarounds” for all of these things.

Im quite lucky in that our schools senior and middle management team is actually female dominated and I don’t feel my gender will hold me back from promotion - however the way pay is structured and with divisory pay awards; I have absolutely no interest in doing this at this point (nor do my male colleagues, for the record)

I am by absolutely no stretch of the imagination “sexy” 😂 nor am I waiting to be “snatched up” by a man - as mentioned earlier; I’ve been in a long-term committed relationship and have two children. I think it’s important that children see that you don’t need to be married to have children - I’m actually against marriage for issues relating to the sexism and misogyny entrenched in it, so by maintaining my identity as a “Miss” I am also standing against the patriarchal views of society, and I’m most certainly not a “Miss Bates” type character. I’m reclaiming the “Miss” title for women who are a Miss through choice despite being in committed relationships; because they do not want to have their relationship ratified by the government.

Are you trying to tell me what to do? 😂

Ms is what I and my friends have always used. Late 40s and in Ireland. Nobody has ever been bothered by it.

I'm married and I'm Ms. It's the female equivalent of Mr. In the US now everyone is Ms - so that's going to be the norm here soon.

Just some friendly advice.

One day someone will see "Miss" and think "old maid/on the shelf" when you still think they're seeing "young and cool", and you won't even see it coming.

I was once on the London train from my hometown and overheard some people discussing one of the teachers at the primary school I and half the people in my town went to.

Someone said, and I quote, "I always thought it was a shame she never married. She deserved to be a Mrs, not a Miss. Not like Mrs Clarke, she was horrible and deserved to be a Miss!"

Awful.

About 16 years ago an american friend of mine living and working in england said she thought it was ridiculous we still used miss and mrs here as it was standard ms where she was from then.

That’s fine and good but I’m not “on the shelf” - I’ve been with my partner for a long, long time. Given that at least half of all marriages end in divorce, I don’t think being “married” carries the same status as it once did, since it’s very likely only going to be a temporary thing. I hope marriage dies out completely. And by retaining “Miss” I am making an anti-marriage statement every day. Any time I see my name as “Ms Kievs” I score it out and write “Miss”

Agree with this. As is the 'Miss/Sir' culture operating in most schools. The difference in status accorded by each of these modes of address is stark, and immediately noticeable. Yet it rarely seems to be questioned.

In the US, 'Sir' and 'Ma'am' are the default. Much more equal, and much more respectful. (Which is the case whatever other problems US schools may have, but those are separate issues).

One day someone will see "Miss" and think "old maid/on the shelf" when you still think they're seeing "young and cool", and you won't even see it coming.

Kinell.

Women really do have a monumental battle still in front of us, if we seek to be defined by anything other than our sexual status.

How depressing. As is the disingenuous disclaimer about the 'friendly advice'. No, it really isn't.

It's frankly weird to want to make an anti marriage statement (the people mentally putting you in the "spinster" box will neither know nor care that you have a partner) but not want to make an "anti women being subjected to value judgements based on their marital status" statement.

I note that you ignored the next part of my post, where I described overhearing a conversation where some people were doing exactly that.

I'm not saying I agree with their attitudes. Quite obviously, I disagree with them. And I want to make it more difficult for them to express those kinds of opinions about women, by getting rid of titles which tell nosy randoms whether you are married or not.

Every woman who goes by either Miss or Mrs is not only exposing herself to having those kinds of value judgements made about her personally, but perpetuating a system where it is easy to make those kinds of judgements about women you don't know, which in turn normalises that kind of behaviour.

Well, the pupils I teach all know I have a partner and kids, because I’ve got photos and artwork by my kids in my class. And they know about my partner too because he’s in a few of those pictures, I wear an engagement ring, and I’ll mention him in class if it’s relevant. Obviously I don’t share too much because of professional boundaries; but I’m sure the majority of them know I’m in a relationship and have kids. Especially because I’m just back from mat leave!

I frankly find it weird that you want to make an “anti women being subjected to value judgements based on their marital status" statement and not an anti marriage statement; given that the historic reason behind marriage are transfer of an asset (the woman) from her father to her new husband.

Hang on. You're opposed to marriage, but you wear an engagement ring? What?!

Marriage is essentially a financial contract. One which I decided to enter with my eyes open.

There are many women here on Mumsnet, unmarried, contributing 50% to household bills despite earning much less than their partner, having children with their male partner and doing the brunt of the "wife work", even giving up work or going part time, who think they're striking some great blow to the sexist institution of marriage, when actually just making themselves financially very vulnerable.

My husband doesn't own me, any more than my father has ever owned me. Because I was born in the 1980s, not the 1780s.

I agree with every single word of this, but would still LOVE to hear the explanation for the poster who is opposed to marriage, but wears an engagement ring 😄😅😅

It’s pretty and sparkly.

We got engaged because we wanted to recognise the seriousness of our relationship without officiating the relationship to the authorities. When we got engaged (in our mid 20s) we were not anti marriage. It was only when we started looking at venues that we realised that we wanted a party, not a marriage.

I wear my ring first and foremost because it’s pretty, secondly because it’s an expensive item. I’d move the finger but it’s the only one it fits and I’ve got another engagement ring on my right hand ring finger, which is my grand old engagement ring, so switching hands doesn’t make sense either.

Well women who put themselves in that position are silly. I’m not in that position, I’m the highest earner, and my partner does most of the “woman’s work” in the house. I’m most certainly not financially vulnerable. If he left tomorrow; my life would only change in that I’d be sad and that I’d need to do more housework and childcare.

Uh huh.

that's a lot of words for something which is fundamentally nonsensical, hypocritical, and embarrassing.

Not engaged, but wear an engagement ring.

opposed to marriage because of what it meant centuries ago, but still very important to signal to everyone that you belong to a man in a highly visible way, every day.

Well this all smacks of "I'm not married because I'm young and cool and feminist but also look everyone, I'm definitely not sad and single! Look at my sparkly ring!"

Out of interest, does your partner wear a ring on his finger to signal to other women that he belongs to you and is no longer on the market?

I'm guessing that he doesn't, and also that his title is Mr, which allows him to go about his life without strangers making judgements about his marital status, because they don't know what it is. If only there was some way women could do that too.

This. ⬆️

I am engaged because we got engaged with the view to get married, started looking at venues (even took family) before deciding that actually, we were perfectly happy with the way things were, and our reasons for marriage were because society places more value on a married couple then an unmarried couple. We decided we didn’t really care what the general public thought of our relationship.

And my ring isn’t important to me for that reason. It’s important because it was a kind gift that someone put a lot of time and effort into choosing. And also it’s pretty.