To have refused to get out of my car for the police in the middle of the night?

[AngeloMysterioso]

Was driving home from work at just after 2 a.m last night when I was pulled over by a pair of male coppers in a squad car after I swerved in the road to avoid a pothole.

I stopped, lowered my window a crack and then turned the engine off and made sure all the doors were locked. They both got out of the car and came over, asked about where I was going, where I’d been etc etc and then asked about the swerve- I explained about the pothole, and that I didn’t consider the move to have been dangerous as there were no other vehicles or anywhere near me (they had been some distance in front of me at the time and on the other side of the road but there was absolutely no chance of a collision) and no pedestrians anywhere around.
Then they asked if I would get out of the car and take a breathalyser test. I refused- I said I’d happily drive to the police station (maybe a mile- mile and a half away) and take a breathalyser there, but that I didn’t feel safe getting out of my car and being alone with two massive blokes in the middle of the night with no other people around, and them being in a uniform didn’t change that for me.

They asked a few more questions about my work, if they needed to would anyone be able to verify that I’d been working, gave me a lecture about driving safely and in the end let me go home with no further action taken - but I’ve just had a phonecall from another police officer basically telling me off for not just doing as I was told.

Was I BU?

You’re right it’s not going to help to not reverse the lack of trust created by recent awful events.

The reason why it’s so bad is up until Sarah Everard the police had an elevated level of trust and power in that if they asked you to go with them in their police car you would. It’s not the same as a van driver, teacher, doctor etc

So the horror of abusing that trust and power is even more extreme.

I don’t want all police to feel they are viewed the same but I think asking for clarification etc is a good step towards repairing some trust.

Surely all good police officers understand why women are wary when they are pulled over at 2am on a dark country lane.

I’m not dismissing women’s concerns, I’m saying very clearly I think, that everything is a risk and we need to weigh that risk up. Two policemen in uniform with body cams on clearly on duty in a marked police car stoping you for a clear issue is very low risk. A solo man following you in plain clothes when you’re just walking along at night who waves his ID badge at you is a much higher risk. Overall police pose a very small risk, women are perfectly capable of weighing up risks in context. That’s how we weigh up risks. But many of the posts on here are just reinforcing the don’t trust police narrative. And yes there will be people on here (as all social media) pushing their own agenda. You do know how these things work. You can get angry at me as much as you like, that’s up to you, but are you getting angry at me or the rejection of a narrative?

@OMG12 I think you are the only person on the thread mentioning defunding the police. Other people would like the police to recognise that they do have problems amongst their ranks and to sort it out. As the Met are discovering, this is a messy process and will make them look worse in the short term but will ultimately improve confidence in the force. Acknowledging and sorting a problem is going to cost money.

Many other occupations require far more vetting. Childcare, prison service, uniformed forces, any other emergency response, education, care work, social services, health care workers.... The police should have one of the best recruitment systems, at the moment it appears that accountancy firms are more thorough.

The general theme on this thread from anyone with any involvement with the police has been very dismissive, berating, misogynistic and frankly bullying at times. Just what the police have been accused of. The culture and accountability needs to change.

You can get angry at me as much as you like, that’s up to you, but are you getting angry at me or the rejection of a narrative?

With you

Of course they understand but what do you want then to do? Not pull over women they suspect of drunk driving? Let them carry on driving somewhere else?

Why? Because I don’t agree with you?

Try reading my previous post telling you why

Well they don’t actually explain why you are angry with me except my narrative doesn’t match yours.

What do I want them to do?

Review policies concerning lone women annually (as a minimum) and update if needed, so that it is kept up to date with safeguarding issues as they emerge and evolve, including lessons learnt; and make these policies available on the web and via publicity.

Something a little better than 'wave a bus down'. What is the police force's policy on stopping lone women? Why has nobody been able to link to it?

You hardly need a map, you just need to drive down a random street and you are likely to encounter one, or two, or many!

The police drive around the area on a regular basis, they won't need a map to know where the potholes are! And as I said, if they were following the OP, they'd have to swerve to avoid the pothole too (or they hit it).

Follow her and pull her over somewhere well lit. Like a station, a pub, a petrol station, a supermarket car park.

It's not hard.

Theres a clear agenda here from some posters to keep stirring anti police rhetoric. Make no mistake that their purpose is to undermine the police

No, I just want the police to use common sense as mentioned above.

And further, not then to phone up to bully people who don't doff their caps and comply immediately.

Police police by consent.

I’m not derailing this thread arguing OMG. I think my posts are clear, you don’t. The important discussion to me is twofold - where do we stand legally in these situations and how can the police help us feel safer.

And anyway, if someone swerves to avoid a pothole it's fairly obvious that they are not drunk. As I said, the police would have been following the OP and must have (a) done the same or (b) hit it. Why would they then immediately assume she was drunk?

Those aren't really the two options, though, are they? There is a lot of fear-mongering on this thread. The risk of being sexually assaulted and murdered by 2 uniformed traffic officers, driving a marked police vehicle which is tracked and has dash cam (as all traffic police vehicles do, as they need it for evidential vehicles) is not the same as a Wayne Couzens-scenario of being abducted by a non-uniformed man in his own vehicle and alone.

It is absurd to believe that women only have two options: arrest or rape by the police. And, even if you believe that to be true, it still does not make sense to refuse to be breath-tested because the police can then arrest and handcuff you.

I’m not dismissing women’s concerns, I’m saying very clearly I think, that everything is a risk and we need to weigh that risk up. Two policemen in uniform with body cams on clearly on duty in a marked police car stoping you for a clear issue is very low risk.

that is your assessment. Mine is that until i know otherwise i will be as wary as i want if stopped by the police when I'm on my own, it's night and nobody is around.

And as plenty of posters have said on this thread it would be a good idea if the police (all forces) gave us their assurance that they will take our concerns seriously (i won't hold my breath) and - since it is their job not mine - tell us what the procedure could / should / would be were we to find ourselves in this situation.

I've only had a few real encounters with the police in my life. One I've recounted here. The others were with me as a victim. One went really well and they were fantastic. The other? not so much. I have literal contempt for the 2 officers (one male, one female) who handled that.

I bet black mumsnetters are laughing at the naivetee on this thread, or shaking their fists saying "we've been saying this forever".

It was 2 in the morning. Do you think that, perhaps, it might have been dark?

Do you think drunk drivers normally slow-crawl past the police, waking a bottle of voddie at them?

No one's complained about the actions of the officers. They were right to stop the driver, having spoken to her and established she wasn't drunk, they were right not to isisnt she got out of the car.

There is some question over the phonecall, but if that was genuinely for advice, fine too.

It's also, unfortunately, right that some women are going to be worried in that situation and police need to recognise and account for that - which it seems these did. It's posters here who've got over excited about it.

The general theme on this thread from anyone with any involvement with the police has been very dismissive, berating, misogynistic and frankly bullying at times. Just what the police have been accused of. The culture and accountability needs to change

I agree with this.

Haven’t even the Met now dismissed the ‘bad apple’ narrative?

My personal experience has been a couple of good experiences, but mainly not good. The police actually tried to fit a relative up for a crime, including outright lying.

I would have asked to do the test in the car.

The general theme on this thread from anyone with any involvement with the police has been very dismissive, berating, misogynistic and frankly bullying at times. Just what the police have been accused of. The culture and accountability needs to change

Yes, wouldn't it have been lovely to hear from someone "DH says colleagues are appalled at what's gone on, people are staring to pull colleagues up on their misogynistic language" or "there been loads of extra training sessions aimed at reversing these attitudes"

Instead all we've had is attacks, minimisation and dismissal.

Wouldn't it just. The poster bleating about her DH being one the good ones beggared belief.

Actually, a number of posters have questioned the officers' decision to pull her over - including the post to which I was replying.

The 0.3% are not acting in isolation though, are they? We KNOW that the police cover up for each other. These 0.3% are not lone wolves who are operating completely outside the knowledge of their colleagues (hence nicknames like "the rapist", the WhatsApp groups that have been reported on, and so on). It's not comparable to other professions such as self-employed tradesmen because the police band together, and have a long-running culture of misogyny (and racism, although that's a somewhat separate discussion). The fact that many police officers are not racist or sexist doesn't matter when those who are are covered for by their colleagues, who might not appear in the 0.3% but are still complicit in engendering the increasing lack of trust in the police because of their silence or active covering up.

@SpyouttheLand The poster bleating about her DH being one the good ones beggared belief.

She won't even know of half the stuff that goes on, just what he wants her to know.