Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this woman should not be put in prison?

960 replies

Nooyoiknooyoik · 02/03/2023 15:31

Bizarre and very unfair Link

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
MolesEdgeworth · 10/03/2023 17:15

Nooyoiknooyoik · 10/03/2023 11:23

I saw an AG this morning. Screaming at a woman in the park whose well-behaved dog wasn’t on a lead. She went out of her way to follow the woman around, shouting at her and trying to kick the dog.

Just watching her made me feel as if I would happily throw her in prison if the dog woman had happened to slip and fall. These AGs are a nuisance. They’re in parks, cycle lanes, doctor’s surgeries, shops, all over the internet…going out of their way to ruin someone’s day just to match their own misery. They have no friends because everyone loathes their behaviour - but you still can’t let your dislike get in the way of what may not have actually happened.

AG, at the very least, swung her arm at Celia, causing Celia to recoil and fall into the road, where she was hit by a car. A very plain and obvious case of manslaughter, even if there wasn’t a shove.

If the offender was an able bodied young person, this case would not have made the press, let alone garnered widespread sympathy.

This isn’t about people wanting to criminalize AG because they dislike her, this is about people wanting to exonerate her from the consequences of a plain and obvious crime because they find her sympathetic (and/or have been misled by inaccurate, click bait, media reports).

Pfeiffle · 10/03/2023 17:38

For anyone interested this is Judge Enright’s sentencing notes (rozenberg.substack.com/p/why-grey-got-three-years?utm_source=direct&r=jhulb&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web)

This is what the judge told the defendant:

You have been convicted of manslaughter after a re-trial. You gave no evidence at trial one or two. In broad terms, the issue at trial was whether what took place might have been an accident, self-defence or unlawful violence. You were convicted unanimously by the jury.

Most of what took place was captured on camera footage. You were walking on the pavement. You resented the presence of an oncoming cyclist. The footage shows you shouting aggressively and waving your left arm. You do not stop, slow down or move to one side. You are territorial about the pavement and not worried for your own safety. After careful thought, I concluded these actions are not explained by your disabilities.

The court heard evidence from a number of witnesses, and I found William Walker to be reliable and thoughtful. He is a cyclist and driver. He said that you and Mrs Ward appeared to have come to a halt in front of each other and you made a lateral sweeping movement with your left arm which was directed at Mrs Ward. He said “it either made contact or she recoiled and fell”.
She
fell into the busy ring road where she was killed by a passing car driven by Carla Money.

This was, I think, a shared path for cyclists and pedestrians that allowed them to go around the busy ring road. The vital point is this: I am sure you knew cyclists used that path and you were not taken by surprise or in fear for your safety. The path at the point of collision 2.4 metres wide.

I have considered the evidence about eyesight and the CCTV footage and visual impairment was not a factor in this incident.

You and Mrs Ward both welcomed the safety of the pavement. She because she was an elderly cyclist and you because of your disabilities. Consideration for other road users is the lesson of this tragic case. We are all road users, whether as motorists, cyclists or on foot.

I have been referred to the guidelines on unlawful act manslaughter issued by the Sentencing Council and have heard submissions from both parties.

In terms of the guidance, looking at these matters in the round, culpability C is made out, but towards the lower end of the scale.

A starting point of four years seems just, based on my finding that the sweep of your arm was an intentional act but being reckless as to whether harm would be caused.

I reject the submission that this is best framed in terms of category D for reasons I have indicated.

Aggravating factors

The vulnerability of Mrs Ward who was on a bike.

The effect on Mrs Carla Money (in so far as her first statement extends). Her enduring distress is entirely foreseeable.

Matters reducing seriousness and personal mitigation

You offered assistance at the scene, but you were turned away by others.
But, on the other hand,
you then left before police arrived and
went off to do shopping. You were evasive when police traced you and told lies in interview.

You have no convictions or cautions or reprimands. You are 49 years old. This stands to your credit.

Your medical history and significant disabilities would have crushed many but you have endured all that in a commendable way. Until now have demonstrated a
positive lifestyle and I have no doubt that over the years you have endured all kinds of difficulties when going around the town centre which may have made you angry on this occasion. In any event, your prior good character stands to your credit.

Is there a mental disorder bearing on these issues? I do not think so.

As to learning difficulties, there are none. Much was made
in cross examination of what witnesses referred to as a
“childlike face”. In fact you went to a mainstream school and denied in interview having any impairment of intellect. That is not decisive, in my view and I put it to one side. Both experts suggested that the childhood surgery resulted in “a degree of cognitive impairment”.
(In my view, these difficulties do not bear on your understanding of what is right and wrong and what is appropriate or not). I should say that I saw the video your police interviews, I read the character statements detailing your lifestyle. I have also read the
pre-sentence report and medical evidence and have learned as much about you as I can.

Remorse. There has not been a word about remorse from you until the pre-sentence report was prepared, and here there is a reference to remorse which has never been passed on to the Ward family. In this regard I accept your counsel’s explanation that this may be a function of your disabilities and do not hold it against you.

There has been a delay in getting this case to trial. This is a mitigating factor I must take into account in your favour.

I also take into account the particular difficulties, occasioned by your disabilities, that you will face in prison and when you emerge.

Balancing all these considerations, the proper sentence is three years imprisonment.

steff13 · 10/03/2023 21:53

What I was interested in was that AG didn't give evidence on her own behalf - this of course was her right - so the jury and judge only saw her interviews with the police. Did she just have a solicitor? Why didn't she give evidence in court using the opportunity to express remorse, explain she was flustered at being questioned by the police? Did she refuse or was it judged she wasn't capable?*

I'm in the US, but here it's very unusual for a defendant to testify at their trial. A defense attorney almost never recommends it. Especially if the person is unlikable.

ReneBumsWombats · 11/03/2023 07:39

She chose to remain silent. Presumably her counsel thought that was best. She would have been cross examined hard, especially on the lying in police interviews.

KatherineJaneway · 11/03/2023 11:53

steff13 · 10/03/2023 21:53

What I was interested in was that AG didn't give evidence on her own behalf - this of course was her right - so the jury and judge only saw her interviews with the police. Did she just have a solicitor? Why didn't she give evidence in court using the opportunity to express remorse, explain she was flustered at being questioned by the police? Did she refuse or was it judged she wasn't capable?*

I'm in the US, but here it's very unusual for a defendant to testify at their trial. A defense attorney almost never recommends it. Especially if the person is unlikable.

Also the judge said she showed no remorse, she could have made things much worse for herself on the stand

bellabasset · 12/03/2023 19:33

I checked on the recommended path widths for cycle/pedestrian paths and the minimum is 3 metres but 4 metres is recommended. Were the council to put in a separate cycle path on that road with fast traffic it would be 2 metres.

The Attorney General's office has also received an appeal against AG's sentence as it was too lenient. Then AG's prison sentence has been appealed but not the conviction.

HMP Frankland are looking for a suitable placement for her, she's currently in the hospital wing. What I personally would do as a compromise would be return her home under a tag with a 24 hour curfew, ban her from any shopping, that can be done online. Any outings she was allowed would be accompanied. Were she in prison she'd have to work so I'd put her on community service for 12 hours a week to get her some exercise. It needs to be to be restrictive and seen as a punishment.

Blossomtoes · 12/03/2023 19:38

Were the council to put in a separate cycle path on that road with fast traffic it would be 2 metres.

It would also have to knock down about 30 houses. The traffic on that road is only fast in the hours of darkness when it’s highly unlikely to have cyclists on it.

ancientgran · 15/03/2023 11:54

Blossomtoes · 12/03/2023 19:38

Were the council to put in a separate cycle path on that road with fast traffic it would be 2 metres.

It would also have to knock down about 30 houses. The traffic on that road is only fast in the hours of darkness when it’s highly unlikely to have cyclists on it.

Why is it only fast in the hours of darkness? Is it because it is too busy during the day so traffic is slowed down? Just trying to picture it in my head.

pointythings · 15/03/2023 12:35

@ancientgran you nailed it - it's a very crowded ring road. At rush hour it slows to a crawl and it isn't much better the rest of the time. I used to work in Huntingdon and drove it daily.

ancientgran · 15/03/2023 12:45

pointythings · 15/03/2023 12:35

@ancientgran you nailed it - it's a very crowded ring road. At rush hour it slows to a crawl and it isn't much better the rest of the time. I used to work in Huntingdon and drove it daily.

Thank you,

New posts on this thread. Refresh page