Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this woman should not be put in prison?

960 replies

Nooyoiknooyoik · 02/03/2023 15:31

Bizarre and very unfair Link

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
pointythings · 08/03/2023 17:15

@ShakespearesBlister that's completely irrelevant because the debate in Huntingdon was around whether this was a pavement at all or a shared pathway. Shared pathways are very common - Cambridge is full of them for starters. So the sayings of a random judge in Nottingham have nothing to do with this particular case.
That aside, AG's actions constitute aggression, caused the death of the cyclist and therefore constitute manslaughter under UK law. Nobody forced her to shout, step in or swipe at the cyclist.

dawngreen · 08/03/2023 18:23

Its strange that the council has added signs since the incident. But moving on from that. The video shows them pass each other. She should not have shouted and gestured to her. But she carried on walking in the middle avoiding the pot holes and the road. The only time she stopped and turned to look was when she heard her start to fall.

Neither of them stopped to let the other one pass.

MolesEdgeworth · 08/03/2023 18:26

dawngreen · 08/03/2023 18:23

Its strange that the council has added signs since the incident. But moving on from that. The video shows them pass each other. She should not have shouted and gestured to her. But she carried on walking in the middle avoiding the pot holes and the road. The only time she stopped and turned to look was when she heard her start to fall.

Neither of them stopped to let the other one pass.

Your summary of the incident does not resemble what actually clearly happened on the video, nor is it a narrative the AG herself tried to push at trial.

Why are you making up nonsense?

dawngreen · 08/03/2023 18:28

I put what it shows

soleilblue · 08/03/2023 18:29

dawngreen · 08/03/2023 18:23

Its strange that the council has added signs since the incident. But moving on from that. The video shows them pass each other. She should not have shouted and gestured to her. But she carried on walking in the middle avoiding the pot holes and the road. The only time she stopped and turned to look was when she heard her start to fall.

Neither of them stopped to let the other one pass.

It's not strange though is it? Do you really think It's strange? A tragic incident happened there and to make it clear and hopefully prevent anyone else dying they've put a sign up.

dawngreen · 08/03/2023 18:31

Strange because if they need a judge to tell them its a shared path they are in the wrong job.

ReneBumsWombats · 08/03/2023 18:32

Its strange that the council has added signs since the incident.

It's strange that they clarified a significant fact about the pathway after a deadly altercation about it?

ReneBumsWombats · 08/03/2023 18:33

dawngreen · 08/03/2023 18:31

Strange because if they need a judge to tell them its a shared path they are in the wrong job.

If they didn't improve the situation after an incident like this they're in the wrong job.

dawngreen · 08/03/2023 18:34

Better late than never 3 years

ReneBumsWombats · 08/03/2023 18:37

dawngreen · 08/03/2023 18:34

Better late than never 3 years

What?

MolesEdgeworth · 08/03/2023 18:40

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

dawngreen · 08/03/2023 18:44

Stop with the insults! Every one can have opinions not just you. And I stick with what it shows in the video.

MolesEdgeworth · 08/03/2023 18:47

dawngreen · 08/03/2023 18:44

Stop with the insults! Every one can have opinions not just you. And I stick with what it shows in the video.

People can have opinions on matters of opinion.

You are making up clear and obvious lies about what video footage actually shows. Lies that even the accused didn’t seek to advance in court, because they are plainly and obviously untrue.

ShakespearesBlister · 08/03/2023 18:48

dawngreen · 08/03/2023 18:23

Its strange that the council has added signs since the incident. But moving on from that. The video shows them pass each other. She should not have shouted and gestured to her. But she carried on walking in the middle avoiding the pot holes and the road. The only time she stopped and turned to look was when she heard her start to fall.

Neither of them stopped to let the other one pass.

Look closer. Zoom in and focus on the point they pass each other. She didn't stop to turn because she hear the cyclist fall. You can actually just see she pushes the cyclists shoulder with her left hand making her fall. It's very subtle but you can make out why she fell if you look very very closely. Someone described it as like one of those magic videos where you watch it over and over but don't see it, then suddenly you do see it and wonder how you didn't notice the contact before. It's there if you look closely enough and zoom in. You don't necessarily see the push because her body hides the push but you do see her pull her arm back quickly after doing it.

ReneBumsWombats · 08/03/2023 18:49

The video clearly doesn't show Grety turning after noticing Mrs Ward falling.

It so blatantly doesn't show that that I can't take seriously anyone claiming that it does.

It's an undisputed fact that Grey swiped at Mrs Ward. Grey herself never contested that point.

Either you truly believe the video shows something other to what everyone else sees, and what the judge, jury and even defendant accept to be true, or you're making it up to be contrarian. Either way, you're not credible.

monsteramunch · 08/03/2023 18:53

ReneBumsWombats · 08/03/2023 18:49

The video clearly doesn't show Grety turning after noticing Mrs Ward falling.

It so blatantly doesn't show that that I can't take seriously anyone claiming that it does.

It's an undisputed fact that Grey swiped at Mrs Ward. Grey herself never contested that point.

Either you truly believe the video shows something other to what everyone else sees, and what the judge, jury and even defendant accept to be true, or you're making it up to be contrarian. Either way, you're not credible.

Well said.

MolesEdgeworth · 08/03/2023 19:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ScrollingLeaves · 08/03/2023 19:05

Unlawful act manslaughter

I have found this guidance from the Sentencing Council.

AG was considered to be culpable under “C”.

A – Very high Culpability

Very high culpability may be indicated by:

the extreme character of one or more culpability B factors and /or
a combination of culpability B factors

B – Factors indicating high culpability

Death was caused in the course of an unlawful act which involved an intention by the offender to cause harm falling just short of GBH

Death was caused in the course of an unlawful act which carried a high risk of death or GBH which was or ought to have been obvious to the offender

Death was caused in the course of committing or escaping from a serious offence in which the offender played more than a minor role

Concealment, destruction, defilement or dismemberment of the body (where not separately charged)

C – Factors indicating medium culpability

Cases falling between high and lower including but not limited to

where death was caused in the course of an unlawful act which involved an intention by the offender to cause harm (or recklessness as to whether harm would be caused) that falls between high and lower culpability

where death was caused in the course of committing or escaping from a less serious offence but in which the offender played more than a minor role

D – Factors indicating lower culpability

Death was caused in the course of an unlawful act which was in defence of self or other(s) (where not amounting to a defence) OR

where there was no intention by the offender to cause any harm and no obvious risk of anything more than minor harm OR

in which the offender played a minor role
The offender’s responsibility was substantially reduced by mental disorder, learning disability or lack of maturity

ScrollingLeaves · 08/03/2023 19:10

From lawyer Rosenburg Substack

This is what the judge told the defendant:

You have been convicted of manslaughter after a re-trial. You gave no evidence at trial one or two. In broad terms, the issue at trial was whether what took place might have been an accident, self-defence or unlawful violence. You were convicted unanimously by the jury.

Most of what took place was captured on camera footage. You were walking on the pavement. You resented the presence of an oncoming cyclist. The footage shows you shouting aggressively and waving your left arm. You do not stop, slow down or move to one side. You are territorial about the pavement and not worried for your own safety. After careful thought, I concluded these actions are not explained by your disabilities.

The court heard evidence from a number of witnesses, and I found William Walker to be reliable and thoughtful. He is a cyclist and driver. He said that you and Mrs Ward appeared to have come to a halt in front of each other and you made a lateral sweeping movement with your left arm which was directed at Mrs Ward. He said “it either made contact or she recoiled and fell”.
She
fell into the busy ring road where she was killed by a passing car driven by Carla Money.

This was, I think, a shared path for cyclists and pedestrians that allowed them to go around the busy ring road. The vital point is this: I am sure you knew cyclists used that path and you were not taken by surprise or in fear for your safety. The path at the point of collision 2.4 metres wide.

I have considered the evidence about eyesight and the CCTV footage and visual impairment was not a factor in this incident.

You and Mrs Ward both welcomed the safety of the pavement. She because she was an elderly cyclist and you because of your disabilities. Consideration for other road users is the lesson of this tragic case. We are all road users, whether as motorists, cyclists or on foot.

I have been referred to the guidelines on unlawful act manslaughter issued by the Sentencing Council and have heard submissions from both parties.

In terms of the guidance, looking at these matters in the round, culpability C is made out, but towards the lower end of the scale.

A starting point of four years seems just, based on my finding that the sweep of your arm was an intentional act but being reckless as to whether harm would be caused.

I reject the submission that this is best framed in terms of category D for reasons I have indicated.

Aggravating factors

The vulnerability of Mrs Ward who was on a bike.

The effect on Mrs Carla Money (in so far as her first statement extends). Her enduring distress is entirely foreseeable.

Matters reducing seriousness and personal mitigation

You offered assistance at the scene, but you were turned away by others.
But, on the other hand,
you then left before police arrived and
went off to do shopping. You were evasive when police traced you and told lies in interview.

You have no convictions or cautions or reprimands. You are 49 years old. This stands to your credit.

Your medical history and significant disabilities would have crushed many but you have endured all that in a commendable way. Until now have demonstrated a
positive lifestyle and I have no doubt that over the years you have endured all kinds of difficulties when going around the town centre which may have made you angry on this occasion. In any event, your prior good character stands to your credit.

Is there a mental disorder bearing on these issues? I do not think so.

As to learning difficulties, there are none. Much was made
in cross examination of what witnesses referred to as a
“childlike face”. In fact you went to a mainstream school and denied in interview having any impairment of intellect. That is not decisive, in my view and I put it to one side. Both experts suggested that the childhood surgery resulted in “a degree of cognitive impairment”.
(In my view, these difficulties do not bear on your understanding of what is right and wrong and what is appropriate or not). I should say that I saw the video your police interviews, I read the character statements detailing your lifestyle. I have also read the
pre-sentence report and medical evidence and have learned as much about you as I can.

Remorse. There has not been a word about remorse from you until the pre-sentence report was prepared, and here there is a reference to remorse which has never been passed on to the Ward family. In this regard I accept your counsel’s explanation that this may be a function of your disabilities and do not hold it against you.

There has been a delay in getting this case to trial. This is a mitigating factor I must take into account in your favour.

I also take into account the particular difficulties, occasioned by your disabilities, that you will face in prison and when you emerge.

Balancing all these considerations, the proper sentence is three years imprisonment.

Update 8 March: Judge Enright has now sent the judicial press office a note of his directions to the jury on the law. I have published them here.

This may help readers understand why the jury convicted the defendant. A jury has no involvement in sentencing.

ScrollingLeaves · 08/03/2023 19:14

The judge’s directions to the jury.

www.scribd.com/document/630156362/Auriol-Grey-Directions-of-Law

ScrollingLeaves · 08/03/2023 19:17

*^You offered assistance at the scene, but you were turned away by others.

But, on the other hand,
you then left before police arrived and
went off to do shopping. You were evasive when police traced you and told lies in interview.^*

MichelleScarn · 08/03/2023 19:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Strangely popping up after the other prolific AG supporters dissappear...

ReneBumsWombats · 08/03/2023 19:18

MichelleScarn · 08/03/2023 19:17

Strangely popping up after the other prolific AG supporters dissappear...

I noticed that too.

RubbishAtEverything · 08/03/2023 19:28

I knew AG at college many years ago, having been on the same college course as her for 2 years. She was very eccentric but was nice enough and has had a hard life.

I was very surprised to hear that this has happened, and do feel for her being imprisoned.

However, she caused the death of a woman, so needs to face the consequences of it.

ReneBumsWombats · 08/03/2023 19:35

Skip to 3.30 if you can't wait.

And don't try to tell anyone after that that Grey didn't do exactly what she's been convicted of doing. It's absolutely damning.

He goes on immediately afterwards (at 4.40) to say that he found signs showing it was a shared pathway, not that that matters to this incident, although he also says it should have been clearer and a shared pathway should be wider.

Swipe left for the next trending thread