To think this woman should not be put in prison?

[Nooyoiknooyoik]

Bizarre and very unfair Link

Text disappeared. The video shows the key part of the footage zoomed in and frame by frame.

Sorry, I expect this is an autocorrect error...soon?

yup! Was meant to be ‘so’.

The video was shared about 10 pages back and she subsequently commented.

This was dawn’s comment on that video.

(and actually, about 5 pages back, not 10).

What the judge said (my bold)

This was, I think, a shared path for cyclists and pedestrians that allowed them to go around the busy ring road. The vital point is this: I am sure you knew cyclists used that path and you were not taken by surprise or in fear for your safety. The path at the point of collision 2.4 metres wide.*

“ I think” it was a shared path ………
speaks for itself.

”I am sure you knew”…………. is an assumption or conjecture.

” The path….2.4 metres wide”…… is that supposed to mean it is wide? One can easily see it wasn’t wide enough for cycle and pedestrian, especially where the lamppost was.

AG was walking on the left think near the kerb. The bicycle was also there probably because of the lamppost. What a dangerous setting.

None of this means A G did not cause the tragic death. But I feel uneasy about it.

They wouldn't agree she had no capacity. I had LPA but what do you do with someone who is actually quite strong and fit, we persuaded her to visit a home and she punched the manager in the face and ran off down the road. He said she would give Hussain Bolt a run for his money.

She could put on a good show one example was I normally took her to appointments but I couldn't go to one so I arranged hospital transport. That afternoon a doctor phoned me to tell me the psychiatrist (he was specialist for dementia) was very annoyed I'd sent her on the bus as the journey with two buses was unsuitable and they had arranged hospital transport to take her home. He was most surprised to be told she had arrived by hospital transport and the homeward journey had already been booked. She had totally convinced them she had done the journey by herself which would have been totally beyond her. If a special dementia psychiatrist can be conned by her what hope did I have.

In the end I got the police, the ambulance people, neighbours and shopkeepers who complained about her to phone her social worker. Still got no support and the social worker would only suggest I called when she was at her worst and have her removed by the men in white coats. Not something I was prepared to do . Finally I hired a private social worker who arranged a suitable place for her, conned her into going there and the home managed to persuade her to stay until they managed to get a deprivation of liberties order for her. It was the most stressful time of my life and I couldn't believe how hard it was to get help.

I feel that getting that off my chest was very therapeutic so thank you for asking and sorry it was so long.

Not at all @ancientgran again am so surprised that it got to that stage, an absolute stress and general horror for you to deal with! Glad she is now somewhere safe!

‘I think it was a shared path’ - i.e. that’s the judges’ opinion but it is unclear. It’s also immaterial to the crime.

‘”I am sure you knew” - you are assuming that the judge is assuming. There would almost certainly have been relevant evidence on that point.

”The path….2.4 metres wide’ means that the path was 2.4 metres wide. And there was absolutely sufficient space for both. Picture of the path below and, obviously, even with AG in the AG proceeding down the middle of the path, there was enough space for Celia to get past her, as she would have done were it not for the assault.

It was truly awful. I care about her and wanted to do the best but apart from danger to herself she was a danger to others not to mention a terrible nuisance to her neighbours.

She is very well cared for now, the private social worker was an absolute star, on her final hospital admission they were again sending her home despite me begging and pleading for them to hang on to her as she was going into the home the following week. The social worker persuaded them to keep her an extra day and then persuaded the home to take her 2 days early and then he collected her from the hospital and said they'd go for a drive. She wasn't happy when she realised where she was and I don't know how they coped until they got the deprivation of liberties. I have to say she became very inappropriate with young men and the young male carers went above and beyond in sweet talking her and distracting her when she was determined to go. I did wonder if young females would be expected to do the same with a sexually disinhibited old man.

I'm glad it isn't like that everywhere.

‘”I am sure you knew” - you are assuming that the judge is assuming. There would almost certainly have been relevant evidence on that point.

He did not say “It has been shown you do know”
or “A witness has seen you there before with cyclists passing,”

or, “There is a large sign ..”

I realise none of this, or whether the path is supposed to be shared, is necessarily relevant to whether or not the woman’s actions caused the death of the victim.

The path….2.4 metres wide’ means that the path was 2.4 metres wide. And there was absolutely sufficient space for both. Picture of the path below and, obviously, even with AG in the AG proceeding down the middle of the path, there was enough space for Celia to get past her, as she would have done were it not for the assault.

I realise the judge knew for a fact the path was 2.4 wide.
But I don’t agree that makes it wide enough to be suitable for a shared path.

A G has a big build like the two people walking side by side along the path in that photo, but she
was walking with a side to side, heavy, unsteady gait so taking up a lot of the width - 1.5 metres? That would leave about .5 each side. .5 for the cycle.

Here is a slim female newscaster being
passed by a cyclist going on the other direction from that in the case.

He is a much younger person than the victim, and evidently a confident cyclist. There is not a lot of space, and though he gets past the news reporter easily, it is because he is cycling very close to the kerb.

On this thread @dawngreen you've come across as insensitive,idiotic and downright disgusting.
That woman on the bike didn't deserve to die.
No it's or buts.
There's no way around the fact the woman walking was aggressive and walked in the path of the cyclist to intimidate her.
Which she did and the poor women fell in front of a car and was killed.

The judge does not need to cross reference every relevant piece of evidence on which his remarks are based. It is unlikely that he is making baseless assumptions.

The news reporter appears to be in the middle of the path, as AG was, and a cyclist passes with ease. Yes, that’s because he is closer to the kerb than was likely safe, as was Celia.

If AG had moved towards the right (and despite her gait, the video does show her to be very mobile) there would have been plenty of room for both to pass safely.

Even with AG refusing to alter her path, or moving further towards the edge of it, there was adequate room for both (indeed, Celia was most of the way past AG at the time of the apparent contact), but possibly not in an entirely safe manner.

But, the reason Celia ended up in the road and was killed, is because AG purposefully assaulted her.

I’m not going to debate that the path was adequate in terms of safety standards, I am not well versed in them and it could well be that the path was, and is, inadequate. What I will gladly debate is that any inadequacy lends any justification to AG’s violent actions.

The path is perfectly adequate. It’s plenty wide enough for a cyclist and pedestrian to pass safely. In the 48 years since it was built this is the first significant incident to have occurred on it.

Had to come back to this thread for sanity as see there's a brand new 'cyclists on pavements' thread on aibu with the AG supporters still doing the 'she did nothing! Only waved her hands in the air' more fool me opening in my pregnancy insomnia!!

Thank you @ScrollingLeaves for the link you posted. I 've also looked at the Utube videos made by the barrister

What I was interested in was that AG didn't give evidence on her own behalf - this of course was her right - so the jury and judge only saw her interviews with the police. Did she just have a solicitor? Why didn't she give evidence* in court using the opportunity to express remorse, explain she was flustered at being questioned by the police? Did she refuse or was it judged she wasn't capable?

I'm in no doubt that she's guilty of knocking Mrs Ward off the kerb and that she should have been prosecuted for this. She's lived in her flat for 17 years so she has absolutely no excuse for not being aware that cyclists used that path.

@Jooliusreezer I used to work with adults with disabilities and I'm surprised that her disabilities weren't sufficient to give her a non custodial sentence - eg move her to a MH unit, or a care home. The Judge acted completely within the sentencing guidelines and I understand how he set the sentencing. I feel a deep sadness for Mrs Ward's family and for Celia Money whose family life has been destroyed by this incident.

*I've been questioned by a barrister for 8 hours im the witness box so I know in practice how it works. I was the claimant in a civil case that went to trial.

I saw an AG this morning. Screaming at a woman in the park whose well-behaved dog wasn’t on a lead. She went out of her way to follow the woman around, shouting at her and trying to kick the dog.

Just watching her made me feel as if I would happily throw her in prison if the dog woman had happened to slip and fall. These AGs are a nuisance. They’re in parks, cycle lanes, doctor’s surgeries, shops, all over the internet…going out of their way to ruin someone’s day just to match their own misery. They have no friends because everyone loathes their behaviour - but you still can’t let your dislike get in the way of what may not have actually happened.

Crikey. Where do you live? It's very rare I come across someone like you describe.

Dislike had nothing to do with it. Stop imagining that it's personal.

None of the jury members knew AG. They saw a full trial with evidence from video footage and independent witnesses and found that guilt was proven beyond reasonable doubt. The conviction is manslaughter. That's serious stuff. And the judge, after taking all circumstances into account, delivered a shorter sentence than standard.

A prison sentence doesn't mean AG is sheer evil and beyond redemption and so on. She'll finish her sentence, probably in quite a short time, and be released. But it's manslaughter. You can't get the slap on the wrist for that. It's not personal.

@bellabasset Today 10:31
I used to work with adults with disabilities and I'm surprised that her disabilities weren't sufficient to give her a non custodial sentence - eg move her to a MH unit, or a care home. The Judge acted completely within the sentencing guidelines and I understand how he set the sentencing.

This really sums up what I think. The judgement was logical but the sentence might have been a MH unit or a care home.

@Nooyoiknooyoik what @ReneBumsWombats said. This isn't about dislike. This is about the fact that a person's actions caused someone to die. Which is manslaughter. That's the law.

Juries look at the evidence and decide whether guilt of the charge has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. It's not a character assessment of the accused. It's a judgement of evidence and whether the accused did it or not. They're not saying the defendant is a good or bad person. It's just deciding whether they're guilty of this charge, based on the evidence.

The time for sympathetic circumstances come later, in sentencing. That's why there's a pre sentence report, and the judge explains why they have handed down that particular sentence. That's when they look at aggravating or mitigating circumstances. And that's why Grey didn't get sentenced to four years.

Can a judge sentence someone to serve time in a care home? She obviously didn’t fit the criteria for a secure MH unit. I doubt prison will do her much good though.

I’m probably exaggerating (a bit)