To think ‘the system is broken’ but…

[Blinddatez]

We are also breaking the system.

From reading posts on here, it seems a lot of people don’t realise just how little we actually contribute to ‘the system’, how much things cost to implement, and therefore what level of service we can realistically expect from healthcare, education and so on.

40% of people are net recipients (they receive more from the state than they put in), but that doesn’t include pensioners. Yet the expectations on here of what should be provided by the state seem to be sky high - generous benefits, good quality but cheap housing for everyone, a 5* NHS, immediate and thorough mental health support, good pensions even for people who have never worked for dubious reasons.

AIBU to think, while the money could be better spent than it is right now, the expectation of what should be provided by the state on here is a bit head-in-the-clouds?

Completely agree.

U.K. has a very entitled population who expect to have a fantastic quality of life based on absolutely nothing.

Everyone talks as if they're overcontributors.

Yanbu.

We all need higher wages.

Well, the majority of us do. Some people are coining it in. There aren't very many of them, but they are taking an insanely high amount of the income generated by trade and industry in the UK. If they took even 20% less, from the millions they have every year, then the rest of us would get 25-30% more than we do now.

And unlike them a good chunk of what we'd get would go back into general circulation. More tax revenue, increased leisure and discretionary spending, the lot.

Wages have been effectively frozen for around 15 years while our national bank has printed money which makes them worth even less.

You can temporarily shore up low wages with benefits. But you can't run an economy, long term, on the basis of the majority of workers having no pay increase for a generation, and you certainly can't run it in that scenario while you are printing money. As we are now finding.

I don’t think anyone expects 5 anything, 2 would be great the be getting on with.

sorry my stars disappeared! 5 star and 2 star

In Martin Wolf's recent book* he reports that only 7% of people receive more in benefits than they pay taxes over their adult life.

Searching around, the origins may be with this (no idea if this has been updated): The welfare state is a piggy bank for life
ft.com/content/b7ae7e52-f69a-11e5-96db-fc683b5e52db

However, as far as I can tell, it's based on a 2015 IFS report: ifs.org.uk/news/more-nine-ten-individuals-pay-more-taxes-they-receive-social-security-over-their-lifetime

In a single year, 64% of individuals in the UK pay more in taxes than they receive in social security. But most individuals experience considerable change over their lifetimes: for example those not in paid work in one year are often in work in another year. New analysis, published by the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) today, shows that extending the period of analysis from a single year to an entire lifetime increases the percentage who pay more in taxes than they receive in social security to 93%.

A second key finding is that in-work benefits are just as good as out-of-work benefits at targeting the lifetime poor (those with lowest incomes over the course of a lifetime). Since in-work benefits do this without worsening work incentives by nearly so much, policymakers might want to put greater weight on in-work than out-of-work support.

These are among the main findings of a new IFS report, Redistribution from a Lifetime Perspective, using data on the baby-boom generation (born 1945–54). The study was funded by the Nuffield Foundation and co-funded by the European Research Council. The research looks at how taking a lifetime – rather than a single-year snapshot – perspective changes our view of inequality, redistribution and reforms to the tax and benefit system.

*Wolf is chief economics commentator at the Financial Times. The book is The Crisis of Democratic Capitalism

sites.prh.com/crisis-of-democratic-capitalism

I understand the sense of entitlement in some people. They've been brainwashed by the government into believing the UK is financially solvent. Not only solvent but one of the richest countries in the world.

This is exacerbated when they see £b's being spunked up against the wall on fripperies e.g. the forthcoming coronation or incompetence e.g. utterly useless PPE in a pandemic.

It consolidates in the minds of the brainwashed the UK is wealthy enough to be able to afford these spunkings.

People need to be told the reality, but when they are told that then the riots would start.

Being a UK citizen is like living a gaslighting, gambling addicted spouse who 'manages' the household finances. They tell you lies, often barefaced lies, and you want to believe you are, indeed, 'The Jones'' whom everyone is desperate to emulate and with whom they are struggling to keep up.

The reality is you're in an ever-increasing spiral of debt that will result in homelessness, hunger, humiliation and insanity when the truth emerges.

Well, quite.

People want a decent standard of living in return for spending 50 years of their lives working.

If that isn't happening (and it isn't, a lot of the time, in the UK) then there's a problem.

The fact that so many people are net recipients should set alarm bells ringing that something is very wrong. We're all working, doing our best, but we're not earning much.

A low wage economy with a high cost of living is not a pleasant place to be and is getting on for being a busted state.

Some MPs are claiming up to 200k a year in expense

That feels like a waste the MPs expectations of what MPs should expect from taxpayer is broken

The Tories could stop making their millionaire donors net recipients. That would help.

This is exacerbated when they see £b's being spunked up against the wall on fripperies e.g. the forthcoming coronation or incompetence e.g. utterly useless PPE in a pandemic.

Agree with you but I would say that those aren't fripperies. It's money finding money.

Same as how there are loads more billionaires now than there were at the start of the pandemic. Same as how executive pay is now many many multiples of average worker pay, when 40 years ago it was only something like (correct me if I'm wrong) eight times average worker pay.

If you get to a certain level of money you just amass it in crazy increasing multiples now. If you're below that, well, sucks to be you.

The fact that so many people are net recipients should set alarm bells ringing that something is very wrong. We're all working, doing our best, but we're not earning much.

Do you have a source for that? It is very different to Martin Wolf's claim (above and which I think is based on a 2015 IFS report). I could do with reading something up to date on this.

Nah, I don't have a source, just going on numbers of benefit claimants. Interesting to see that report. I guess it makes sense in that most in work benefits only get paid to people with kids under 18, which doesn't cover an entire working life.

But still. A country with wages so low that workers are claiming benefits is a country in trouble.

And we have no tomatoes!

More than 50% are net recipients. It took 25 years of economic mismanagement and stupification of the population to get here. Everyone wants a handout and are happy with freebies without ever wondering who is going to pay for it. And as the pie gets smaller, their handouts will get smaller. Gun, foot, direct shot.

No one asked 25 years ago how the eve growing welfare state would be paid for when low pay started to be subsidized with tax credits meaning the 16 hour culture set in. No one asked who would pay for lockdown freebies like furlough. No one wondered who would pay for subsidized energy bills. Or what impact sky rocketing taxes would have on the economy.

The chickens are coming home to roost now. The goose that laid the golden egg is starting to lay fewer eggs now. As the number of net contributors has reduced to less than 50%, the handouts and freebies are going to be harder to come by.

It's insane to think that 40% of people take more than they give, seems very unfair to me

Simply put, 1% own 99% of the wealth. That 1% know how to avoid taxes and making contributions. They think if they contribute 1%, they're contributing more than someone contributing 25, 30, 40, 50% and in pure £ terms, they are but in reality that is where society is imbalanced. Make sure the 1% contribute their 50% share and we can all have the healthcare, facilities and education we feel we should have.

@Dibbydoos yes and pay workers enough that they can contribute.

No one is going to be contributing much on £10 an hour when a house costs £280000 and a bag of fucking potatoes doesn't cost much less.

It’s this kind of nonsense that keeps people stupid. Oversimplifying the problem to a lazy primary school soundbite.

The problem is low productivity in our economy which affects every single working age person in the country. Low wages, low skills, high tax, no incentive for industry to invest in automation, build new infrastructure. An incompetent and corrupt government. A population that is economically illiterate and thinks you can print money or borrow your way out of a problem. Try building a factory, road, runway, and type of infrastructure anywhere and they come out with placards.

To be honest, the competence the of the government reflects the general intellect of the population. It really is no wonder, the country in a mess it’s in.

And yet miraculously when we didn't have years of Tory bastards in power and we were part of the EU we had much better standard of living. And still paid the same taxes and had some freeloaders not doing their share.

I don't think any regular person believes that printing money is the answer LOL. I think we all know that we've been completely fucked over by that particular policy. All it's meant is that what scant bloody wages we do have are worth even less. And unlike the asset owning class we can't hoover up yet more assets to compensate for that.

Yet most people were happy that £450bn was printed between 2020-2022. Those that did not get freebies openly complained on this forum and wanted to stay to home watch Netflix.

Any sane person could see the inflation juggernaut coming down the track, yet most people were happy with this utter ridiculousness.

The public has whole heartedly stood behind what the government has done to them.

I'm not sure where you're getting your info from. Did you do a poll?

Also not sure that you're quite au fait with how this grab panned out. It didn't pay for ordinary people's Netflix, that's certain. Christie's opened up a branch in Dubai though.

It’s this kind of nonsense that keeps people stupid. Oversimplifying the problem to a lazy primary school soundbite.

The problem is low productivity in our economy which affects every single working age person in the country. Low wages, low skills, high tax, no incentive for industry to invest in automation, build new infrastructure. An incompetent and corrupt government. A population that is economically illiterate and thinks you can print money or borrow your way out of a problem. Try building a factory, road, runway, and type of infrastructure anywhere and they come out with placards.

To be honest, the competence the of the government reflects the general intellect of the population. It really is no wonder, the country in a mess it’s in.

Exactly. I've tried pointing out on here before that living standards cannot rise until productivity increases, and people don't seem to get it. Many don't seem to even understand what it is.

I'm no economist, but my understanding is that we've had a trade deficit since the 70s and are running a gargantuan national debt due to years of reckless public spending.

I don't understand why our productivity is so low though, as people in the UK work long hours in comparison with other countries?

Yes. Productivity increases when there is significant investment in tech, infrastructure and education.

None of that happens in a low wage economy topped by asset hoarding.

Honestly, we are fucked. There are so many countries on the rise that have got this better than we do and now we've left the trading union that was our buffer.