To think ‘the system is broken’ but…

[Blinddatez]

We are also breaking the system.

From reading posts on here, it seems a lot of people don’t realise just how little we actually contribute to ‘the system’, how much things cost to implement, and therefore what level of service we can realistically expect from healthcare, education and so on.

40% of people are net recipients (they receive more from the state than they put in), but that doesn’t include pensioners. Yet the expectations on here of what should be provided by the state seem to be sky high - generous benefits, good quality but cheap housing for everyone, a 5* NHS, immediate and thorough mental health support, good pensions even for people who have never worked for dubious reasons.

AIBU to think, while the money could be better spent than it is right now, the expectation of what should be provided by the state on here is a bit head-in-the-clouds?

Agreed.

I took over running a company that had a lot of mealy-mouthed box tickers in management, a senior director working 70h weeks but totally ineffective, and a grumpy staff.

I revamped the entire business approach, cut working hours (plus a payrise) and increased the autonomy of the general staff by eliminating unproductive layers of management.

So much 'looking busy' work was cut, and every hour spent was far more productive. And the staff were happy!

But I've talked about this approach with other companies, and they seem desperately scared of the idea of giving up pen pushers, or cutting staff hours etc.

@Believeitornot yes you are right

The welfare state need scaling back to only provide help to the very disabled who absolutely cannot work and those where all adults in the household are working at least 37 hour per week.

That’s all well and good but the infrastructure isn’t there to support all adults working 37 hours per week. I have a child with complex additional needs, she’ll go to a specialist provision school for high school in August, she will still need after school care for me to be able to work. I cannot for love nor money find a childcare setting that will take a 12 year old child. It’s not a case of not being able to afford it - I’m very fortunate that finances aren’t an issue - it’s simply not available.

Many families are absolutely hog tied by the cost of childcare and can’t find anything that works around shift work, for example. It’s an easy thing to say every adult must work, but practically it often looks different.

In work benefits hugely contributes to this issue. The government should not have to top up wages, it benefits businesses which should be paying adequate wages

Agree, I've always thought this. Taxpayers are subsidising employers so that they can get away with paying low wages. This is socialism for the rich.

Yes, if the cost of labour goes up, some businesses will move overseas. But most low-waged people work in supermarkets, nurseries, warehouses etc which cannot be easily off-shored.

Sounds great to me although I’d be interested to know if that was kept up, how the company was doing now and what staff felt about it.

I find it interesting that people at different levels of an organisation have very different views about what is and isn’t needed. Those with the most power end up influencing how things are done, but they may not necessarily have the right answers.

I'm glad some places are moving towards a 4 day week and working from home is permitted in so many jobs now. Don't forget we peasants were working a seven day week not long ago, you were lucky if you got an afternoon off. the cost of living crisis is making some people have to go back this way.

I think in many ways a three day week for a living wage should be the norm. This would allow many more currently economically inactive people to be in the workforce, and for longer. Some of those owning the means of production want to crack the whip and for human beings to do more but if some people were a little less greedy, not the 1% but the 0.1% - the key to this is not hoping that they will somehow do the right thing but countries getting together to minimise tax/law loopholes for corporations and individuals- then this could be achieved and also tech can help to pick up the slack rather than completely replace humans.

Partly an adjustment was due across the globe as standards of living equalise more between different countries and people quite rightly stop being exploited. But there is a big problem with the super rich hoarding wealth and the gaps between the rich and everyone else becoming even more profound.

I hate to agree but I agree.

And as wages throughout the world become more equal, off-shoring makes even less sense.

Let’s talk about net recipients shall we?
Joe out there fixing your electric supply after a storm
Shirley making your coffee at Starbucks
George working backbreaking shifts at an Amazon warehouse
are all net recipients if you are talking about their individual tax contribution from their wages, there’s a fair possibility in fact that they all receive UC top ups.

But yet they are all vital cogs in the machine that should generate huge tax revenues for the government. If all the Shirley’s and George’s walked out tomorrow, companies like Starbucks and Amazon would collapse within weeks, their tax revenues (such as they are) lost completely.

So sure Shirley and George and Joe might be met recipients according to their wage packet but infact if you count the tax they contribute to (well would contribute to if certain companies paid their share) they become net contributors.

The top bosses don’t like that workers ultimately hold all the power, that’s why they are opposed to unionisation, it’s why wages are kept low and essential bills high, keep people desperate enough to labour for the man. But it’s not the CEO contributing his 40% tax which funds the NHS or the council houses. It’s the labour of Shirley and George and Joe because without them they’d be no CEO. The system works because of them.

We have many excellent SMEs who are fantastic employers and actually make and build things, still, in this country, in spite of successive governments' attempts to turn us into a massive corporation complete services and leisure based economy as that is all the ...go to a top school...go to a top university...graduate in Politics Philosophy and Economics...work as an intern for a politician...work as a SPAD for a politician...become a politician...understand. Most people are actually employed by SMEs.

The government's role particularly in the last 13 years seems to have been to wholly bugger things up for small and medium sized businesses.

Also they need Shirley, George and Joe to spend money on things other than their gas bill. Capitalism seems to be eating itself at the moment.

the obvious interventions include immigration increases and planning reform

Should we simply concrete over the countryside and open the borders to all comers? No, this country is a beloved home, not a globalist economic hub. Wealth is more than just pounds and pence.

Immigration goes both way and people should be able to come and go (and they do!). Look at the state of our immigration system - we have people sitting in hotels unable to work because we cannot process claims fast enough. If that was solved, we can welcome people here to contribute and we can send people back if they don’t have a claim. Instead they’re sitting there in limbo to satisfy the wet dreams of the daily mail.

planning isn’t just about concreting over the country side.

It’s about having decent buildings built to a decent standard, about allowing changes of use, about stopping land banking and encouraging local economies to have a mix of buildings and public space.

Quite. Because they have been in thrall to investment banks, hedge fund donors who haven’t a clue about genuine wealth creation.

And this, ladies and gentleman, sums up why we are in this mess.

Don’t gives businesses the workforce they need, don’t build anything, yet keep the freebies flowing for those with Little Britain mentality.

Money does not grow on trees. It is either acquired through production in the economy, for which you need people and infrastructure. Or you print or borrow it. How has the printing and borrowing turned out?

Like I said, it’s worrying that the economically illiterate have the vote. They are dangerous.

we have people sitting in hotels unable to work because we cannot process claims fast enough.

They’re net recipients in the making though. They’re not going to be working jobs which are high paid enough that they’ll be net contributors. They’ll go into a low paid job and UC.

Our politicians are focussed on the next election cycle and how they can bribe an infantilised electorate with pledges of yet more spending. No one seems to be looking to the long-term national interest.

Well put. The issue is the money needs to go on things we won’t get an immediate return on and are longer term projects, but the public are a bit selfish and short sighted and instead will just put the X next to whoever keeps them personally better off.

Gosh that’s a bit of a ignorant assumption to make.

How the fuck do you know that?

I was born here, my mum was a single mum, had a job, then had a massive mental health breakdown and ended up on benefits. I ended up in foster care.

So I was not a net “contributor” in your eyes.

Then I had state help with social services support, went to university and now I’m a higher rate taxpayer. And have been for many many years. So a net contributor.

Where do I sit on your nasty little scale?

It’s all very well calling it ‘nasty’ but the problem with treating everything as a moral issue is that you cannot get away from the fact things cost money. And what has your own situation got to do with it? I wasn’t talking about you.

I think in many ways a three day week for a living wage should be the norm. This would allow many more currently economically inactive people to be in the workforce, and for longer. Some of those owning the means of production want to crack the whip and for human beings to do more but if some people were a little less greedy, not the 1% but the 0.1% - the key to this is not hoping that they will somehow do the right thing but countries getting together to minimise tax/law loopholes for corporations and individuals- then this could be achieved and also tech can help to pick up the slack rather than completely replace humans.

Ain’t gonna happen. It would be ‘nice’, but it’s very much fairy land. I feel a lot of posters on here live there (just me?!).

Because you put people into this boxes and assume that they’re net givers or takers and that’s the end of it.

And you assume all asylum seekers have no skills or ability to learn and improve? Can you imagine what motivation it takes to drag yourself and your children across the world to make a better life for yourself?

Why do you think all asylum seekers would want to claim benefits and not work? If you were a little less ignorant, you’d know that not to be true.

Of course they do. Well, some of them; same as anywhere. But it’s very likely they cannot speak English to the level required, that their qualifications will need to be refreshed to meet U.K. standards or requirements and so on.

When did I say they would claim benefits and ‘not work’? You’re just making things up now 🤷🏼‍♀️

In fact re immigration from what I can see and my own experience, the highest quality and most productive immigration we had was from Eastern Europe. Such a shame we don’t have that anymore.

They’re net recipients in the making though. They’re not going to be working jobs which are high paid enough that they’ll be net contributors. They’ll go into a low paid job and UC

This you? You’re assuming they’ll have benefits and be in low paid jobs?

People can and do learn English and can and do work here and do very well. You’re assuming that they don’t speak English. They may well do already!

But you’re assuming that they will all be taking out more than they give. Which might be the case for a short space of time and then, with support, they’ll do well.

It’s quite a cynical mindset.

Well given that this country doesn’t welcome foreigners, and signalled as much with Brexit, what do you expect.