To think ‘the system is broken’ but…

[Blinddatez]

We are also breaking the system.

From reading posts on here, it seems a lot of people don’t realise just how little we actually contribute to ‘the system’, how much things cost to implement, and therefore what level of service we can realistically expect from healthcare, education and so on.

40% of people are net recipients (they receive more from the state than they put in), but that doesn’t include pensioners. Yet the expectations on here of what should be provided by the state seem to be sky high - generous benefits, good quality but cheap housing for everyone, a 5* NHS, immediate and thorough mental health support, good pensions even for people who have never worked for dubious reasons.

AIBU to think, while the money could be better spent than it is right now, the expectation of what should be provided by the state on here is a bit head-in-the-clouds?

I don't understand why our productivity is so low though, as people in the UK work long hours in comparison with other countries?

Productivity isn't really to do with how hard you work. It's more about what gains you realise in return for your activity.

If you have a country full of low waged workers with poor tech, poor infrastructure investment and who are poorly educated then your productivity will be low. Individual people can work as hard as they like, but if the overall economic conditions are bad then the country will have poor productivity.

We do seem to have a culture of doleys who want it all for nothing - I know so many people I went to school with who had lots of kids and just doss on benefits instead of working.

The idea of only having a number of kids you can afford (even if that’s zero) is invariable absolutely baffling to them.

No we don't @Deathbyfluffy. Since 2017, the state will only pay benefits for up to two children.

Yeah I mean with all respect I don't think that kind of fringe behaviour is really an issue. Most people are economically active for the majority of their working age lives, even if some may dip in and out of being so. But even with that, and even with no financial support for people under 21 and no pension for people under 68, we're not making enough money, not paying enough money, to have a viable economy.

Here is an example of something that people should be very worried about. But most people wouldn’t even know about it. Corporation tax is about to increase from 19% to 25%. ‘Let the fat cats pay through the nose’, I hear you say. Well, here’s some news, the loathed big corporations just take their business elsewhere. Like Astra Zeneca which is choosing to build its mega plant in ROI now, because of its low corporation rates. I mean it’s not like this country needs high skilled jobs in life sciences, anyway.

Heathrow, once the business airport in the world and then Europe until very recently, is basically a European backwater now. The transatlantic route was very lucrative. But decades of mismanagement since the late 90s, pearl clutching by environmentalist and incompetence by governments has caused major damage. Yes, let’s all be poorer and March to net 0 while China adds more coal production soon being accounting for 1/3 of global emissions.

Low productivity is not solved by people working more hours. It is solved by automation and private sector investment and by having better infrastructure like roads, airports. Which company would want to do business in a country where corporation tax is so high, infrastructure is poor and the workforce he’ll bent on working no more than 16 hours a week in case their benefits get cut?

You want higher pay, better public services. Who is going to pay for it? You think MPs claiming a few thousand less than in expenses is going to fix the problem? Or CEOs (in the private sector, I might add) taking smaller bonuses will fix the deep economic issues? Anyone who is so economically illiterate so as to believe this, should not have the vote. They are dangerous.

Oh lordy, I do agree with some of that but firms and banks are moving out of London because of brexit not because of the 16 hours tax credit limit. Which in any case wouldn't be an issue if employers just paid their employees a proper wage.

You yourself acknowledge that this isn't about people not wanting to work.

It's much deeper than that. Our economy is being fundamentally mismanaged.

Thank you @VoteTurnipGetTurnip and @sst1234 for explaining low productivity.

Depressing that the workforce is so poorly skilled given how hard HE has been pushed in the last 25 years. It seems that many of our universities are little more than diploma mills.

The nature of our democracy is part of the problem, I think. The media is full of Westminster gossip and discussion of trivial, ephemeral events while the public remains in ignorance of the big issues. Our politicians are focussed on the next election cycle and how they can bribe an infantilised electorate with pledges of yet more spending. No one seems to be looking to the long-term national interest.

I'm no Liz Truss fan, but she was at least trying to confront some of these deep-rooted economic problems. Her proposals didn't sound that wacky to me, and I'm pretty leftish. Why do you think the Bank of England, etc and the markets reacted so badly?

You are right. The problem is short term thinking by a generation of politicians of a low calibre.

Liz Truss, for what its worth, was the wrong person with the right ideas. She was right that the economy needs supply side reform and lower taxes. Unconstrain business, encourage investment by private sector and give ordinary taxpayers higher spending power. What she got wrong was the messaging and made a fundamental error - not cutting spending. You can’t cut taxes but then say you will continue the gargantuan spending that this government does and add another £60bn on top to pay people’s energy bills. Her tax cuts were not costed. She needed to clearly say where the spending cuts were going to be. This would then be the start of trying to repair the rot that is deeply embedded within our economy.

And the Bank of England has been run by incompetents for a long time now. They have one job - literally one job. To keep inflation below 2%. See how that’s turned out.

Alas, we now have the guy leading us who threw printed billions like confetti for two years, borrowed record amounts, is low cranking up corporation tax to see off the last of the corporations from this country. The lunatics really are in charge of the asylum.

Hold onto your seats folks. The latest prediction is that UK economy will be smaller than Poland by 2030 and our living standards worse than Romania in the coming years. Anyone with an ounce of sense and good employment prospects abroad should be heading for the shores.

Hold onto your seats folks
This. The decline has definitely accelerated markedly over the last few years since Covid, Ukraine, etc. Sometimes I feel we're on a precipice, about to go over the edge.

Oh, it's depressing isn't it!

I'm sure emigration has its attractions, but I'll never leave. I'll be here to the bitter end! 😭

We keep being told that we have to work harder and harder for less and less nowadays op. It’s a load of politically motivated tosh, or mismanagement of statistics, to claim that 40% of us don’t contribute enough to the system: either that or the system has now become a behemoth swallowing people with no thought or care for their needs that has always been feared. Remember systems are built by people and need to serve people, not the other way around. The baby boomers have already sucked quite enough of the lives of people my age up.

For context it’s generally said that hunter gatherers have to work about 15 hours or so in a week to earn a living. Hand to mouth farmers about 20 -25: for the boomers, it was one person working 35 hours and maybe a few part time hours for a second menber of a couple: for the early gen xers it was 37 hours and a part time job for the other member of a couple. Now it’s two full time professional jobs working 40 - 60 hours a week that’s needed and still we get this rubbish about how most people don’t contribute enough.Who is taking all the extra work and resources we are producing?

You are right, the system is broken because none of us are paid what our work is worth. It used to be that if you worked you got paid: now we are told to work voluntarily to get experience for a paid job, “entry level” low pay roles pay rather less than the total cost of living, and we all have to work harder than ever in hope of getting a wage that might match basic living costs.

Gp back to Tory central and tell them that no one likes being turned into slaves to feed an imperial system.

I love this country, I am broadly proud of this country. I would not want to live anywhere else.
If I get into trouble, the safety net is still there, it may be a bit tatty but it is there.
However a lot of us could pay more tax than we do.

@sst1234 has explained it.
And it is disingenuous to refer only to ‘benefits’ - people expect everything to be free -education /social services/ health etc -who pays? It amazes me the number of economically inactive people in their 50s and 60s that I meet having retired early and paying little tax and NI (and on state pension no NI).

There is a massive taxpayers money stealing going on,one newspaper reported more millionaires were created during covid pandemic than ever before- wonder how, hancock gave his mistress and her bro 150mil gov contract. 40 billion got spent on an “NHS” covid app that was actually owned and ran by a private company, dont even want to think about how much money gets sent to the ukr war..one air defence missile that uk has sent costs about 100k, at times they have used over hundred a day- sunak has promised more £££.

british taxpayers are not unreaonable,no pay increases, most of the country is run down even kids playgrounds are outdated and broken, many hospitals needs to be modernized (a large city hospital near me had old side cot beds in postnatal ward,looked like from the 60s, they got rid all of them as they were “unsafe” and never been replaced its been 4 years now)

oh 11 billion a year goes from taxpayer between 4 large supermarkets to keep them propped up, even when they made mega profits during covid.

just like now energy companies, another one coming is how much unused covid vaccines are costing the taxpayer, hancock ordered 4 doses for each person in the Uk inc children-lol overly optimistic or what

wage stagnation & low wages
little investment in skills & services by the gov
asset inflation
big inequality
ageing population

It's a mess.

I don't understand why our productivity is so low though, as people in the UK work long hours in comparison with other countries?

low wages, no investment by government agencies & all recent growth fuelled by asset inflation. That's not how you increase productivity & make a stronger economy.

Anyone with an ounce of sense and good employment prospects abroad should be heading for the shores.

Young people who want better opportunities will just start going abroad. Im not sure how the nhs & social care will be funded going forward with the big demographic changes.

I think the benefit thing is a red herring

I have had a small amount in benefits here and there over decades, when I have needed it, but that is not really where I have cost the state

I think the value of the cancer treatment I am receiving from the NHS right now is more than I have ever earnt, let alone paid in taxes

I do feel like the remainder of my working life I will be gladly paying back the goodwill into the education system, that I have received through the health system.

I am not saying that I will become a doormat to ofsted morons, but I will certainly feel that I "owe" the UK population, ( and will be paying back to children) in a way that |I didn't feel in the past

Such a stupid narrow minded way of looking at things.

I will follow up. People who need state support - surely it’s fucking obvious that at that moment in time, they may not be contributing much.

Think about it. You lose your job, so you pay lower taxes, so you need benefits. Doesn’t make it so all the time!

Youre a pensioner, so you pay less tax. Doesn’t mean you always did!

you are a child, you need education, funnily enough as a child, you don’t pay much tax!

OP, I am not sure if you are hard of thinking or what.

It would be really interesting to see some sort of report which said -

The UK govts annual budget is X

We've currently got X to spend on the NHS, that looks like Y or Z.

We've currently got X to spend on roads, that looks like X or Y.

We've currently got X to spend on schools... Etc

In work benefits hugely contributes to this issue. The government should not have to top up wages, it benefits businesses which should be paying adequate wages.

I

Do you know how corporation tax works?

It isn’t like tax on salaries. It is not a tax on income. It is a tax on profit.

So companies can make huge levels of income, and avoid tax by investing. The more they spend to reduce their income, the less tax they pay. That spending could result in more investment.

It is economically illiterate to think that corporation tax rates are the problem here.

And if you want investment in infrastructure then governments need to do it. They could and should borrow to do it - because it signals that they are willing to improve the country for the long term, and investment from the private sector will follow.

It is economically illiterate to think that cutting government spending in key areas will improve the economy.

Is that a joke?

We have to compare ourselves to other similar countries. Similar European countries, for example, have better public services and a higher standard of living than the UK. They also have lower levels of inequality.