To think ‘the system is broken’ but…

[Blinddatez]

We are also breaking the system.

From reading posts on here, it seems a lot of people don’t realise just how little we actually contribute to ‘the system’, how much things cost to implement, and therefore what level of service we can realistically expect from healthcare, education and so on.

40% of people are net recipients (they receive more from the state than they put in), but that doesn’t include pensioners. Yet the expectations on here of what should be provided by the state seem to be sky high - generous benefits, good quality but cheap housing for everyone, a 5* NHS, immediate and thorough mental health support, good pensions even for people who have never worked for dubious reasons.

AIBU to think, while the money could be better spent than it is right now, the expectation of what should be provided by the state on here is a bit head-in-the-clouds?

The outcome of privatising the energy companies and water companies is a clear example of why relying on the private sector to invest in infrastructure is naive.

Look where we are decades later? They prioritise profit and always will! That’s the job of government, to ensure investment and it’s better for them to do it directly.

Think how much people are shocked and moan about the price of dental treatment, which is by and large a drop in the ocean compared to other medical treatments. Most would be shocked at the price of healthcare, and whilst free at point of use is an admirable thing to have, its not really sustainable nor do many appreciate it.

I totally agree. I'm staggered to find many people I know tell me that they submitting a tax return, who only have one job, paying little tax.
Many people with many health conditions who have never worked. Pensioners needing lots of help for many health conditions.
And yet average bog standard me being taxed a lot. Pot holes in roads not being repaired. I find people entitled. Not realising the cost of these things. Then wondering why the nhs is failing. (And yes I know it's failing for many reasons) but people's expectations are too much.

Let's take the blindfold off, shall we? We had it on for too long.
It has nothing to do with the expectations of the humble tax payer and citizen, but with the greed of a few that are hoarding all the money.
We, the standard citizen, are as good as the engine and wheels in a car. We move the whole economy. We do contribute with each penny we make. With the results of our labour, with the taxes we pay, with the children (future workers) we raise, with the money we spend on entertainment, with the mortgage we pay, the car finance....
We either pay directly into the system or we put it into other people business, banks, make products that can be sold....
It is not us.
And we do deserve a good education system, good health system, good support system and so on, because WE do pay for it! And so do the staff working in these departments.
I think we have to stop buying into this that there are millions of people in UK living on benefits and taking the mick. Most of us work, a lot.

I've tried pointing out on here before that living standards cannot rise until productivity increases,

It's the other way round. Productivity cannot increase unless living standards improve. People are too unwell and too demotivated to work harder.

UK spending on benefits/social welfare is relatively low compared to other developed countries at 20% of GDP in 2019. By contrast France was 31%, Germany 25%, Spain 24% and even Poland was 21%. It is slightly above the US at 19%.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_welfare_spending

what do you mean?

It is cheaper and more efficient to have a properly funded NHS funded using general taxation. When the NHS was funded properly, it was one of the best healthcare systems in the world - and that was also on cost grounds.

We don’t get it for free. We pay for it through our taxes. If we switched to a private model, we would pay more because of the profit margins.

If you have one job you’ll pay tax via PAYE unless you have complicated arrangements, so what are you talking about?

We have a broken tax system which under taxes wealth.

How do you expect people with long term health conditions to work if they’re ill?

YABVU. Wages are extremely low. Of course people are paying less tax comparatively as a result. That will continue to happen, while employers are able to make ever increasing profit, while stagnating the wages of their employees.

Younger generations are harder working than ever from what I see. 2 working parents, that do actual parenting. Cooking proper meals for their DC, planning child centred activities for the weekends, helping with homework. None of those things were the norm wen I was growing up.

At the same time, I work in adult social care. I'm frequently told, without any hint of irony, that someone's elderly parent in their 90s has 'worked all their lives'. Completely missing that they have been claiming state pension for 30 years!

But do we contribute little because we earn little? Surely if wages were higher everyone would contribute more. It's not like anyone (except the rich) are living it up. A large portion of our country is struggling financially so how could anyone pay more in?

Higher taxes/less loopholes for high earners and large businesses

YABVU. Wages are extremely low. Of course people are paying less tax comparatively as a result. That will continue to happen, while employers are able to make ever increasing profit, while stagnating the wages of their employees.

Low wages are a double whammy too - employees pay less tax and then take out of the system in the form of in work benefits. If companies paid a realistic wage tax intake would go up and benefit payments decrease.

It’s not loopholes for higher earnings taxed through PAYE ie who earn salaries that are the problem. Those loopholes are few and far between.

It is loop holes for those who earn money in other means, held in offshore trusts etc - that’s where the real problem lies.

How does productivity work in employment areas that aren't productive?

Take 'care', for example. We are already desperately short of carers across the board- elderly, assisted living, adults with disabilities. We're going to need ever more carers as the population ages.

How does that contribute to productivity? If we suck up huge numbers of workers into care roles, does that increase productivity in any way? Does it siphon workers away from more productive jobs?

Sorry for my ignorance.

I think it’s very convenient to blame offshore wealth and the 1%. I’m sure there’s a problem there too, but I think many in UK society are way too quick to expect the state to pick up the tab and lacks accountability for their own actions which contribute to a crappy society. See how teachers are treated, and how people refuse to look after their own health, for example.

Pointing out the level of net recipients to me just highlights the huge level of inequality that people start out with. If people all had a fairer deal from the start they wouldn't be so far behind. If they didn't have so much less they wouldn't need so much more.

It's not the so called takers that are the problem. It's the ones that have put people in a position where they have everything and lead others to live a life of scrambling for the leftovers.

Let's not blame people who haven't been dealt the upper hand in life. Many of who are extremely hard working.

There is wealth to afford a better standard of living for everyone, it just isn't in most people's hands. The people who have the resources are too busy clinging on to it so they don't have to lose their own status, power and security which they feel they are more entitled to than everyone else.

Completely agree. The appetite grows with the eating.

It’s not loopholes for higher earnings taxed through PAYE ie who earn salaries that are the problem. Those loopholes are few and far between.

yes it's not about income more so wealth.

We have too many people who don't contribute to society . Lifelong benefits should not be allowed unless you are disabled and benefits should be given in your hour of need based on how much you've put into the pot .

Productivity isn’t a measure of worker output. It is a measure of investment in and what you get out.

So if we need more care workers, that can be invested in with higher wages and better conditions etc. those higher wages will boost the local economy as people have money to spend…. And by being well paid, they’ll more likely be in better health.
That is a good thing.

The number of people on lifelong benefits is tiny. The number of scroungers is tiny.
focus your energy elsewhere.

YABU. There is no reason we can't have the standards of living other European nations have, other than the political choices this country made/makes.

The demographics in the UK are not much different than other European nations, but the costs families in particular face (housing, food, heating, childcare, transport) are much higher than in many.

British families are much poorer than French families - research on this was published last year. Standard of living much lower.

British people deserve better government. Better government would give us better quality of life.

This, exactly.

You’re making ridiculous statements though.
Most people are decent and don’t take the piss. If you think otherwise, that says more about you than anything.

Most of us don’t have a much choice in terms of wages etc and we have massive inequality as a result. To brush aside the 1% is just naive.

It's not really about how hard individuals work. The productivity problems are structural.

Truss was right about the need for major focussed intervention, though she went about it in a catastrophically ill-judged way. The problem is that the obvious interventions include immigration increases and planning reform which would go down like a cup of cold sick with the Tory party.