About scouts refusing "time off".

[AmIreallyBeverly]

TLDR: Should scouts hold a place for 3 months if we keep paying subs and have a good reason not to attend?

Son has done cubs/beavers/scouts at the same group. We've always actively supported them including volunteering occassionally. There are no other suitable groups.

He's got a very rare opportunity to do a 3month ice hockey course. He's been talking about similar stuff for ages and is desperate to do it. Of course it clashes with scouts.

We told scouts he wouldn't be coming for a 3 months and why but we would keep paying subs to hold his place. They said they won't hold his place because of their waiting list.

I'm so angry. We kept paying during lockdown when about half of parents stopped because they weren't doing anything. They all kept their places (I know some (not all) was due to the financial impact on some families. It was a local decision, not from regional). There are also families that turn up inconsistently or just for the good bits who keep their places.

He (and us) have already shown years of commitment so I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for 3 months "off". They won't be worse off for it.

My son doesn't want to give up scouts so has turned down the ice hockey but is really upset and it's made me not want to support them in any way going forward.

We did think lying to scouts and saying he was ill/we were on holiday/he has a Dr's appointment etc during those 3 months but didn't feel it was an appropriate thing to teach our son.

YANBU - as long as you pay subs and have a definate date you'll be returning, they should keep your place.

YABU - there are people waiting to join and 3 months is a long time.

so younger children on the waiting list keen to join

but you’d be happy to keep the space open for a teenager until September when in Al likelihood… he wouldn’t want to return anyway

Yes I do agree the OP has come over pretty heavy on the anger side, but I could't take issue with the original premise.

I think some of the OP's anger stems from her treatment on here. I think some people came in all heavy and got her back up.

I mean, some posters like Vegrocks can't seem to countenance any viewpoint different to theirs.

It's funny when such threads seem to elicit so much emotion. It is as if some people have a bee in their bonnet over it all.

Lots of posters feel very strongly that OP IBU. I and a few others feel differently. We have given our reasons. We are not going to have our minds changed by shrill posts reiterating the points already raised.

Because I’m shocked that someone would even want their child’s place to be left empty until September, this denying another child a chance to enjoy scouts, let alone be “so angry” about not being permitted to.

I would feel very uncomfortable knowing that until September… the volunteers would be batting away the waiting list parents even though there was a space available (that would likely be declined by a teenager come September anyway)

Is he old enough to help with beavers? Possibly some sort of compromise could be reached if he were showing his commitment in that way. How far off is he from Explorers age?

It’s not about paying the subs is it? If everyone did that then there would be no scouts and a massive waiting list which would be silly. I’d say that as soon as attendance goes below a certain level (excluding medical reasons) then they should have to go back on the waiting list.

What next? If the sessions seem too crowded, you pay for two places, so that your son has more space/resources etc?

The fact of the matter is it’s not fair to pay for a space that is not being used. The whole system would collapse like that. Especially as others have said the subs don’t cover all costs

*Yes I do agree the OP has come over pretty heavy on the anger side, but I could't take issue with the original premise.

I think some of the OP's anger stems from her treatment on here. I think some people came in all heavy and got her back up*

It's fair enough that you would do things differently from most, and of course, everyone is allowed their opinion, and should be free to express it. However, the OP was angry from the start, her original post says I'm so angry.

Yes and I think a lot of the replies are a response to that unreasonable anger. That and the apparent belief that this boy's priveledge should extend to depriving another child of a price because his parents are willing and able to pay for an unused place.

We're supposed to sympathise the boy who has to choose between two good opportunities but not have a second thought for the one who has neither.

Perfect

Life is full of choices. Using your relative wealth (i.e. ability to pay for two clubs at the same time) to deny another child (whose parents may well not be in that position) a place at a club that you have chosen for your son to not attend in favour of something else is unreasonable behaviour.

Good on the scout leader, I think that humouring you would not be good scouting.

I’m actually with you op! We seem to be in the minority.

I think his years of commitment should count for something. You paying the subs is neither here nor there, really, but it's not as though your son wants the three months off to hang around on street corners smoking dope - he's doing something purposeful. Tell the Scouts to stuff it, if they don't care about his previous service - I'm sure there are other youth organisations that would welcome him.

While I think his years of commitment should count for something, it may well be a Cub who's ready to move up who'd get that space, in turn opening a space for a Beaver into Cubs and a new Beaver at the bottom.

I'd look for another local group on a different night if he really wants to keep doing Scouts. Or ask if he gets to jump to top of list.

So you think the fact that you organised a donation should buy your son a permanent place without any obligation to actually turn up?

Honestly you sound very entitled. Scouts isn’t a club you pay for, it’s a community entirely dependent on its volunteers giving up their time for free. It used to be all the parents took it in turn to help, but now so few parents bother that the same few people end up helping every week. The subs cover sod all. Have you ever actually volunteered your time as a scout helper? Or do you just throw money at them?

It’s no bad thing for your son (and you!) to learn that he has to make choices and can’t have it all.

Some children sit on the waiting list for many years and never get a chance to do Scouts.

Tell the Scouts to stuff it, if they don't care about his previous service

Service? It's not the army! Hopefully the OP's DS went to Beavers/Cubs/Scouts because he enjoyed it, not just because he had to.

I appreciate that the OPs son attended all events, even the boring ones, and she was helpful to the group by stepping up when needed. But to be fair, I would hope that she would do this, considering the volunteers are giving up hours and hours of their time to help both her child and others. I know (from bitter experience) that many parents don't do this, but I'm not sure that it should mean that the DS' place should remain open while he goes off and does other things. For a shorter period of time, maybe, but not for an entire term.

Exactly.

Who is doing who a favour here?

The 'service' is to enable your son to engage in opportunities. Parents need to help to facilitate that. It's not a debt that you can then cash in because youve done so much. Parents helping is about doing it for their own child or doing an exchange of labour with another parent (so your kid is in cubs, but you do beavers whilst the cub leader maybe has a child in beavers). It's about doing something to help your own kid to enable the group as a whole to continue to function. Or doing the volunteering for your own benefit.

I think in our troop if the parents continued to volunteer weekly whilst their child did something else THAT would be taken into consideration about getting the next available space when they were ready to return but there wouldn't be any space 'left open' - that's three months of another kid missing out - and it would be about continuing to demonstrate ongoing commitment to the troop.

Service to the troop is bollocks. You do the boring shit cos it helps you get badges and work toward gold scout awards and because it's about community participation a lot of the time. Which is sometimes boring but necessary and important. You learn that no everything is fun and games. The whole point is giving something of yourself without demanding back.

I'm sorry you missed the memo on what scout core values are, but really it's not like the military. It's the antithesis of that mentality a lot of the time

The OP and the entire crux of the scouring movement don’t at all seem compatible

She should feel very uncomfortable with the idea of denying another child this place until September so that her son enjoy another activity.

but nope… she’s just bloody cross!

What is comparable though, I think, is that some leaders in these organisations expect to take precedence over other things and don't like it if that doesn't happen. It's the centre of their life, and their top priority, fair enough. But they have to understand/accept that not everyone feels the same way.

What is comparable though, I think, is that some leaders in these organisations expect to take precedence over other things and don't like it if that doesn't happen. It's the centre of their life, and their top priority, fair enough. But they have to understand/accept that not everyone feels the same way.

I think that's slightly unfair. I used to be a Brownie leader - it was never the centre of my life and I understood that other people had other commitments.
But equally I knew that we had a huge waiting list (some people would never get in) and if a person with an existing place wanted to do something else for 3 months, then I'd rather prioritise someone off the waiting list rather than holding a place, with no surety the person would ever come back.

Fine if you don't want to prioritise scouts or whatever. But you can't then expect them to prioritise you.

@redskydelight I'm hoping that the experience I had was the exception and that most leaders have your mindset.

What is comparable though, I think, is that some leaders in these organisations expect to take precedence over other things and don't like it if that doesn't happen. It's the centre of their life, and their top priority, fair enough. But they have to understand/accept that not everyone feels the same way

I just don't think that's the case here, or at least, there's nothing to suggest that it is. I don't know any leaders that think scouts must take precedence over family life. In fact, we, as leaders, often say that the order of priority should be 'family, work (school), scouts'.

But that's not what this is about. It's about a child who's parent wants scouts to hold a space open for three months, despite this preventing another child from the waiting list getting a space. That's not prioritising the occasional other event, that's being unfair to both the leaders and the children on the waiting list.

Why would a volunteer role be someone's top priority?
Theses are people with real jobs that pay the bills, families and friends. Many are parents who do it for their kids benefit others are Scouts who became young leaders. Some will have a hidden agenda- getting experience working with kids for a proper job.

Scouts and Guides are a hobby that requires a huge commitment from the leaders not just the hour on a Wednesday night, its the time to prep Wednesday night, the time to do required courses inc first aid certs, the overnights and weekends for camps.

If kids aren't prepared to commit to it why should leaders bother?

Let's spin it on its head, what would happen if the leaders decided - Meh I've got a better offer for the next 13 weeks - I'll just leave the Scouts and see if I can pick up later.

Really the kids would go off and do other stuff they'd be no Scouts to return to.

It's not a good reason.

It's what's called getting a better offer.

If the ice hockey is a better offer/preferred activity right now then leave scouts and go on the waiting list to rejoin.

It's not about the money. It's about having respect for those wanting to attend weekly.