Incels

[Theninetieswerebetter]

Is anyone watching ‘Untold’ on Channel 4?

I worry for my DD’s future

DH is a gentle man, loves cats, best of fathers, good to his parents and my Mum, office job.
Would I trust him to fight and die for me and the children if we were attacked, absolutely, and I would do the same for him.
The trick is knowing when your ploughshares need to become swords and acting appropriately.

This is interesting. Ars**oles come in all shapes and sizes. Being non-manly doesn't make a man a nice person. He could have a completely off-putting personality and undesirable traits while being unmanly. I know quite a few men like this. We have come so far in our desire for emasculation that we equate manliness with evil and vice versa

Depends on your definition of "manliness" really. Being gentle when that's called for, not too concerned about having a macho image, not being into sport etc doesn't make someone "unmanly" in my eyes. Then again, being a violent ill tempered twat who hits people, throws their weight around and gets drunk after watching a football match isn't showing their "manliness" in any way IMO.

Allergictoironing balanced post, and I agree with most of it. But we can still be aware of all that and adapt without the need to completely emasculate men or 'defeminise' women.

For me as a some time survival instructor and bushcraft nut I tend to think of toxic vs positive masculinity in terms of how we relate to the natural environment.

A toxic male will crash into wilderness, unaware and uncaring of what he destroys fully equipped to kill the biggest thing he can and feast. He has to move on and repeat.

A positive male will walk gently, aware that everything is connected, nurture everything and live in balance.

But then I have a beard and a silly little fluffy dog

A positive male will walk gently, aware that everything is connected, nurture everything and live in balance

No eating then

That would be a bit silly.

That's why you nurture, have a positive influence so you can take what you need without destroying the balance.

To be honest I'm confused as to why women even seem to be responsive for the emasculation or otherwise of men anyway

We are talking about incels and how dangerous and destructive their views are, to women in particular and somehow we are back to blaming women

So once again male anger, male aggression and male violence are women's fault.

Modern warfare rarely needs massive muscles and the ability to club or punch an opponent into submission, or the levels of face to face aggression it once needed. Brains, co-ordination and the ability to use modern weaponry are much more important these days. As long as physical strength isn't in the equation women can do everything men can. There are women soldiers, sailors, fighter pilots, "on the ground" not in back offices.

Allergictoironing great post.

My less than macho husband would probably be great at modern warfare. He's intelligent, a problem solver and good with anything mechanical and building things. Not so great at wielding a broadsword, but less call for that these days.

Some of the posts on here are clearly written by out of date dinosaurs.

Again, depends on your definition of "Emasculate" and "Defeminise".

I am definitely female, and though fat and comparatively plain looking I like to wear pretty dresses on the right occasions and try to look good wearing things that flatter me. Though never been (or wanted to be) a mother I am very nurturing e.g. siblings, nephews, pets, workmates, friends etc. The fact that I was a "tomboy" when I was growing up, have always liked sports, and wear trousers & flats most of the time (due to disability & practicality) doesn't make me masculine.

One of my best friends is very definitely male. He's a confident self assured man who used to play lots of sport in his younger years and currently does sport diving. He has "presence" and could never be considered emasculated in any way. Yet he is a father who still cares for his grown up offspring, has cats he adores and is very gentle with, used to have a very small dog he also adored, is empathetic and kind. He defers to me on subjects I know more about & vice versa.

I could be considered as de-feminised due to my clothing, the fact I have no dependency on anyone else, work for a living, love many traditionally male sports. He could be considered emasculated by some definitions because he is kind, loving, gentle, doesn't care that his dog was a tiny lap type dog & doesn't care too much about traditionally masculine trappings like what car he drives (practical rather than the sporty one he would have for pleasure), bragging about how tough he is, or throw his weight about.

Who knew that masculinity has been brought down by chihuahuas? 😂😂

First of all, if you are 50+ I very much doubt your husband fits the chihuahua walker stereotype being discussed here.

Do you think that young men today (not your DH) would have the inclination and ability to protect their own in the way you describe? They have been almost brainwashed into thinking that defence is linked to 'toxic masculinity' and hence is a bad word. So I'm not sure whether they would be capable of modern warfare either

@Allergictoironing sounds like two people comfortable in their own skin . There's a lot of power in that alone, in being at peace with & confident in who you are, whatever sex/gender/age/etc.

@thehorsehasnowbolted who are these people you talk about? Do you have studies, facts, statistics, evidence, verified documents...or have you made a person up in your head composed of things you don't like?

And do you believe that the armed forces are made up entirely of the over 50s?

Bizarre thought salad.

I don't need to make them up as I see them every day.

The only under 50s with any resemblance of masculine appearance or traits (and I don't mean 'toxic masculinity') I see seem to be builders, farmers and the armed forces. That's it

By ‘feminine’ do you mean men showing emotion rather than bottling it up (suicide rates are higher in young men), respecting women and doing traditionally female jobs eg housework and childcare? I know plenty of men - young and middle aged - who are exactly this and are in healthy relationships with women.

Incels are insecure weirdos who prefer to glean all their ‘knowledge’ of women on Reddit and other forums than to go and meet women in the real world. They need to get help for their depression and insecurity and step away from toxic incel forums.

' interesting', oh christ that's classic.
Dispute incoming. No, aggressive sexist violent misogynistic males do not enjoy more success. Many are frequently or permanently jobless as they can't work with others, in constant social trouble or in jail.
Successful men are intelligent, confident, good communicators and have people skills. None of which qualities are 'feminine'.
Now f off.

Absolutely!

Being gentle doesn't mean being soft, and nbeing aggressive doesn't mean being "manly" (whatever the effect "manly" is supposed to mean.

Please don't equate *rseholery and "manliness".

And yes - there are gentle men who you may not be attracted to because you don't like their personality; but there are many "manly"men who many be superficially charming but absolutely toxic in a relationship.

My “macho” husband has a beard and we have chihuahuas. He likes to snuggle with them

I don't know about a chihuahua, but he did carry our adult daughter's tiny puppy cavapoo in a sling on walks (in front of the general public 😱). Does that count as emasculated? He's in his mid 60's, by the way.

I can only answer based on personal experience, but I think my two daughter's partners would 100% protect them and their families and risk their own safety to do it. I don't think you would want to tackle one of them if you saw him and he isn't macho in his behaviour at all. He is fully supportive of feminism and a lovely man.

Men don't need to do macho posturing constantly. It's very off putting and makes me think they would run a mile if required to protect anyone other than themselves.

I have to say that you do seem to think in stereotypes. It's very unevolved.

None so blinkered as those who have strapped on the blinkers themselves.
See loads of successful younger trad males in a range of occupations but then I allow myself to be influenced by those pesky things, facts.

Because of their tiny size, agility, and piranha-like teethiness, chihuahuas are perfectly evolved to bring down masculinity by shooting up trouser legs and biting off bollocks.

@thehorsehasnowbolted Sounds like The Village People. Cool, I'm in! Cheers for that compelling argument.

Why are you on Mumsnet if you hate "feminine" things, anyway? Shouldn't you be spending your time on Big Burly Farmers Show Navy Seals How To Use Their Massive Weapons Dot Com?

@Emotionalsupportviper genuine lol, thank you!

I have the delightful image of them snuggling in his beard, like the birds in Lear's nonsense poem.

If I am wrong about this I don't want to know