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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Incels

311 replies

Theninetieswerebetter · 26/02/2023 22:37

Is anyone watching ‘Untold’ on Channel 4?

I worry for my DD’s future

OP posts:
SchoolTripDrama · 27/02/2023 15:32

@Burntoutcandle I mean, your original post was deleted by MNHQ so 🤷🏼‍♀️

QueefQueen80s · 27/02/2023 16:20

ChunkaMunkaBoomBoom · 27/02/2023 09:11

Incels are claiming women all want ‘chads’ yet I am surrounded by women whose partners are Scott from IT, or Nick in marketing or Sam who works in the training dept or sales.
They all seem happy enough with nice,
ordinary looking men who have a ok paid job, go to home matches on a Saturday and take the kids swimming on a Sunday and do their share of house/ life/ kids stuff.

Because incels think they're entitled to the type of women who go for "chads"

QueefQueen80s · 27/02/2023 16:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Emotionalsupportviper · 27/02/2023 16:28

TerrysGotPeeves · 27/02/2023 10:55

Nah, that would be too much work. I just covertly slip my birth control pills into his morning coffee, that I of course make for him because it's my job as the woman in the relationship to provide his breakfast 😂

As long as you Know Your Place.

Barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, obviously Grin

miniaturepixieonacid · 27/02/2023 22:51

What struck me was the difference between the incels and the femcel. All the young people featured on the programme had experienced bullying, rejection and isolation. None of them had kissed anyone and all believed themselves to be unloveable. All responded by seeking out extremist groups and views online and watching horrific, graphic violent videos.

But, at the end of it, so many of the incels final conclusion was that they wanted to hate, hurt and kill women. The femcel's final conclusion was that she wanted to hate, hurt and kill herself. Completely follows the pattern of all other male and female violence, doesn't it.

Having said that, I did feel sorry for D. I think the older, more extreme, website owning incels are scum. But many of the lonely, mentally ill teen/young men seeking out the sites are victims - not just as much victims as the women, obviously, but victims none the less.

thehorsehasnowbolted · 28/02/2023 00:13

GothicViolence · 27/02/2023 00:49

All fair enough questions.

Millennials and Gen Z

Its been a political push from the elites to subdue the west, they did this by me forcing the politics of the HR department onto wider society.

It depends on the household but the indoctrination starts at home, absentee fathers are a huge problem, it takes men to raise men.

The introduction of seed oils and soy into the modern diet has also caused testosterone levels to plummet.

The programming that meant men in the Stone Age could hunt the mammoth.

Any metric you can think of; career, interpersonal relationships, health, wealth..

I think there is some truth in all of this.

I will not comment on 'true incels' as I'm not sure what it means, really.

I think very few women would choose a man who exhibited 'toxic masculinity' traits.

But the current drive from society to try to emasculate men at all cost is indeed worrying.

There needs to be a happy medium, surely.

I would think that most women would like well balanced, respectful men. But I struggle to see how women can be attracted to some of the stereotypes that are often seen as theoretical role models for young men today (e.g. vegan, walking chihuahuas, being scared of their own shadow, etc)

ConfusedNT · 28/02/2023 00:25

What very odd stereotypes to choose

But that said, if I had a choice between a vegan man who had a chihuahua and was nervous I would still prefer him over an incel

I'm vegetarian so it would make cooking easier. I am a cat lover personally but I do like dogs and I'm not sure I could marry a man who didn't love animals. I think think a man who manages to be confident in his own self whilst walking a fluffy little cloud rather than a staffy or whatever the new 'cool' dog is shows signs of a man who is comfortable in who he is which is always good.

And if he's nervous it's probably because toxic masculinity affects men as well as women, and men get attacked by men all the time. So I would assume something crappy had happened to him and not hold it against him.

None of this is likely to make him an incel or make him responsible for incels.

And dietary choices and pet choices do not make you emasculated.

WiIson · 28/02/2023 00:35

But I struggle to see how women can be attracted to some of the stereotypes that are often seen as theoretical role models for young men today (e.g. vegan, walking chihuahuas, being scared of their own shadow, etc)

Yep.

thehorsehasnowbolted · 28/02/2023 01:04

And if he's nervous it's probably because toxic masculinity affects men as well as women, and men get attacked by men all the time. So I would assume something crappy had happened to him and not hold it against him

What does this even mean?

I would not give a womanizer or bully the time of day. But why are we teaching young men that it's acceptable to be scared of other men? Can you imagine if the West was to be attacked and we had to rely on chihuahua owners, bearded speciality coffee drinkers, 'gentle hands' advocates for our protection?

And I don't agree that men need to exercise physical aggression, but currently even speaking their own minds seems to be an unsurmountable challenge to them.

Too much Ying in society and not enough Yang

I don't know if HR is to blame, or too much soy or who, but the current state of affairs is very dangerous for our society indeed.

ConfusedNT · 28/02/2023 01:09

If incels were the answer to a society where men apparently can no longer defend us (newsflash, they have been letti g women in the military for some time now) they would all be in the military.

And if I had to look to someone for protection, a bearded speciality coffee shop owner sounds like a better choice than a man who hides in his bedroom moaning on websites that he can't get laid

MeganTheeScallion · 28/02/2023 01:46

"Walking chihuahuas" as an insult is just chef's kiss level weird, well done! Excited to update my lists of Unhinged Internet Claims, cheers.

ConfusedNT · 28/02/2023 02:07

MeganTheeScallion · 28/02/2023 01:46

"Walking chihuahuas" as an insult is just chef's kiss level weird, well done! Excited to update my lists of Unhinged Internet Claims, cheers.

Will nobody think of the poor chihuahuas 😂

MeganTheeScallion · 28/02/2023 02:14

Imagine if you were a regular vegan bloke, working in HR and had a chihuahua, just going about your day, drinking your soy latte, totally unaware that you're responsible for the downfall of western manhood.

ConfusedNT · 28/02/2023 02:14

When I was volunteering for a kids thing one of the kids dad's would walk the daily chihuahua to come and pick up the kids. Lovely man, two children, steady job, nice wife. Never struck me as emasculated but there you go learn something new every day

I also know a man who part owns a speciality coffee company. Lovely man, four kids, 2 grandkids and a beautiful wife. Very successful in business, good at making and keeping strong friendships. Also has a small dog now I think about it. And is a public speaker so 'speaks his own mind', sometimes he even speaks about his fears and he's mesmerising. About as far as emasculated as I can think of.

Funny thing is they are the happily married ones, with some amount of an active sex life given they've had kids, and they seem really happy and content.

But sure these are the ones damaging society, not the ones who encourage each other to kill people because they aren't getting sex with beautiful women.

NoMoreDrech · 28/02/2023 02:36

ConfusedNT · 28/02/2023 01:09

If incels were the answer to a society where men apparently can no longer defend us (newsflash, they have been letti g women in the military for some time now) they would all be in the military.

And if I had to look to someone for protection, a bearded speciality coffee shop owner sounds like a better choice than a man who hides in his bedroom moaning on websites that he can't get laid

This!

As seen on this show, incels are normally inadequates, a significant proportion have learning difficulties and all are socially isolated and odd. They are not ‘macho men’ being oppressed by nice, bearded coffee drinking chihuahua walking vegans.

ItWillWash · 28/02/2023 03:31

But I struggle to see how women can be attracted to some of the stereotypes that are often seen as theoretical role models for young men today (e.g. vegan, walking chihuahuas, being scared of their own shadow, etc)

I am deliberately single. I'm not physically attracted to women, unfortunately, and men, are by and large, arseholes, imo but if I met a bearded, specialty coffee-drinking, vegan man walking a chihuahua I would be interested. I love coffee and chihuahuas and I'm always trying to eat better. Plus, he's vegan and has a Chi therefore the chances of him being an arsehole are significantly reduced.

ImustLearn2Cook · 28/02/2023 04:05

I’m scared of chihuahuas, I would think he’s pretty brave to own one. 😉

CheekyHobson · 28/02/2023 05:03

ImustLearn2Cook · 28/02/2023 04:05

I’m scared of chihuahuas, I would think he’s pretty brave to own one. 😉

Yeah, they can be really bitey little fuckers.

A vegan with a well-behaved chihuahua sounds to me like someone who has either strong morals or an iron will, and a sensible/fearless approach to dog-training to boot.

Over40Overdating · 28/02/2023 08:21

I would not give a womanizer or bully the time of day. But why are we teaching young men that it's acceptable to be scared of other men? Can you imagine if the West was to be attacked and we had to rely on chihuahua owners, bearded speciality coffee drinkers, 'gentle hands' advocates for our protection?

Men are scared of other men because they are fucking dangerous. The overwhelming majority of violent crime - towards men, women and children - is committed BY MEN.

Chi owning, speciality coffee drinking, gentle hands men are showing common sense and awareness to fear the violent ones.
If more men were gentle hands, we wouldn’t have to worry about being attacked because the urge to murder, destroy and evade wouldn’t be there.

And in my very long experience, the only men ‘afraid’ to speak their minds are the ones who hold racist, misogynistic, problematic views to begin with. What they fear is rightful consequences for the actions - because newsflash, free speech is not the same of freedom of consequences for hate speech.
Angry man logic 101 - if I’m not free to spout hate and shite, I’m being oppressed, wah wah wah.
Nothing more unattractive than a grown man having a temper tantrum.

TeaStory · 28/02/2023 08:47

Gotta love that “bearded” in there as an example of an emasculated man. Because of course there’s nothing less manly than… checks notes… having thick facial hair.

MeganTheeScallion · 28/02/2023 08:52

@Over40Overdating YES!

@TeaStory no no

MeganTheeScallion · 28/02/2023 08:53

@TeaStory posted too soon!!

Ahem.

No no no, you misunderstand, silly female. Facial hair is a sign he's turning into a chihuahua.

ChunkaMunkaBoomBoom · 28/02/2023 08:59

'Gotta love that “bearded” in there as an example of an emasculated man.'

That's weird, must of the bearded men I know are big rugby playing blokey blokes. Did I miss a memo??

Allergictoironing · 28/02/2023 09:09

But the current drive from society to try to emasculate men at all cost is indeed worrying.

I think you're using the term "emasculate" in a very emotive way, and citing what you view as extremes of "emasculated" behaviours.

Firstly your stereotype "soy drinking, beardy, chihuahua walking" etc. In modern society there's no need for a large, aggressive guard dog, dogs are pets pure and simple and I really can't see why a smaller dog should be seen as weakening a man, these animals are fearsome ratters by nature and when brought up e.g. in a farm setting. The only reason in modern society for a pet dog owned by a man to always be big & macho is to make a statement by association with the animal - and a man who is confident in himself doesn't need that kind of symbolism. Sort of like the old "big car = big penis" thinking.

Regarding soy/non-cow milk, humans were lactose intolerant until very recently in evolutionary terms and cows milk still isn't very good for the majority of people. More and more people are realising that consuming something that isn't really that good for you isn't a terribly good idea, so are going lactose free whether that be soy, almond, oat, goat or any other lactose low/free variety.

Beard wearing is a ridiculous indicator of someone being emasculated. Fashions change, and many times in the past beards were an indicator of masculinity and clean shaven was seen as effeminate.

I can completely understand the desire in men to be protective of women. Women are physically weaker, have times when they are pregnant and less able to defend themselves, and due to these have historically been the ones to raise children.

They are also in many ways less "disposable" than men. If the men go out to hunt & only half come back, the remaining ones can still father the same number of children. Whereas if half the women die, you can only produce half the number of children.

BUT - the world has changed an awful lot since the caveman days or even medieval days.

Modern warfare rarely needs massive muscles and the ability to club or punch an opponent into submission, or the levels of face to face aggression it once needed. Brains, co-ordination and the ability to use modern weaponry are much more important these days. As long as physical strength isn't in the equation women can do everything men can. There are women soldiers, sailors, fighter pilots, "on the ground" not in back offices.

With changes in modern society bearing and raising children is no longer a dangerous potentially fatal task and can be much less time consuming e.g. modern medicines, schools, formal child care arrangements, modern technology. This frees up women to work, despite them often being expected to still pick up all the home tasks like cooking, cleaning, childcare & admin.

So women have in general adapted to how the world is now, at least in First World countries. They can fulfill just about any role without feeling de-feminised or masculine. Many men have adapted in the same way, sharing tasks and no longer dividing things into "men's work" and "women's work", as there's no need for that any more.

Unfortunately many men have failed to evolve. They don't seem to realise that being able to fight and/or oppress anyone weaker than them (in their eyes) is no longer an important trait for survival. This can frustrate them and they react in the only way they understand, by getting more violent & aggressive, often against the very people they should be protecting.

TL:DR
It's a very sad state of affairs when the whole historic reason for men needing to fight & be aggressive is turned against the very people those traits evolved to protect, rather than being able to adapt to the modern world.

ConfusedNT · 28/02/2023 09:16

Men are killing 2 women a week through domestic violence etc yet somehow the ones we need to fear, because of what they might do to society, are the ones with gentle hands....🙄

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