AIBU to think my DH sounds like an dick

[SandroSandra]

Opinions on this conversation pls. We live in a small old scruffy cottage and have 2 small kids

I commented to DH that restoration isn't so much of a joy when you have to work full time and you've got kids (inspired by a thread on here i was reading this morning) and that isn't it frustrating our cottage is still so scruffy and broken even though we've been here 3 years.

He said "ah well that's the thing about feminism innit. Women want to work but guess what there isn't enough time to make a nice home too"

I said "well it's more that most couples both need to work these days to pay the bills"

He said "sure of course but just odd all these women stressing that they want perfect homes, following restoration accounts and Mrs hinch on Instagram. But no woman has time to do any of it so just make you all feel guilty. It's almost like it was a good idea to have someone stay at home because guess what making a beautiful home is a full time job and adding restoration on top of it - it's impossible"

And I said "but men could stay home if they wanted"

He said "but we don't want to really. You were the ones that wanted to change the model and set up and then you're all stressing out you don't have time to do it all"

He then started saying

"Oh course there is a theory that the Rockefella family made feminism a success just to get 50% of the working people working their arse off and paying tax. And women fell for it"

Does he sound like a dick? It really wound me up but he insists whats he's saying is just logical.

But none of that is particularly logical, if you drill down. And there are very logical rebuttals. You’re just not making them. You’re getting upset and hoping he stops.

So, you’re being ground down by sexist nonsense at home…while also earning most of the money. It’s mad.

He sounds like a lazy git who wanted to distract you from discussing renovating your house because he knows that would mean he had to get involved too. So he distracted you with sexist bullshit on purpose.
It doesn't mean he is sexist. He just knew those buttons would stop you talking about what you could both do to make your house less scruffy. It does mean he's a manipulative arse.

What do your weekends look like?

Who's home first?

Who does the mental load?

Who does the majority of childcare?

If you are the higher earner it’s easy to say “you’re right of course. When are you quitting your job then?”

Im also guessing he does fuck all inside the house or with the kids, am I right? So you out earn him and do all the things? He sounds easily disposed of.

That's absolutely true.

But does he pull his weight?

Without knowing the backstory it just sounds as if you are talking past each other.

You are both putting everything in a very neutral and over-general way - not "I wish we had more time to make the house nicer" or "I feel frustrated because .... does it bother you too?" or "I wish you would stop complaining because neoither of us have time to improve".

Your neutral way of wording things and then getting into generalisations about feminism and "men vs. women" instead of "what I want" vs. "what you want" is
an intimacy killer.

So: Is he saying that he doesn't personally mind if the house stays a bit of a mess and you can both rub along as you are? Or is he saying that he does want a "nice" house but he wants you to do it? Or do you want him to give up work to do home improvements? If you do, then own it and say so!

He isn't wrong in as much as 2 full time working people with children cannot renovate, keep everything clean and tidy without outsourcing.
He is also not totally wrong that it does tend to be women that follow Mrs Hinch and the likes and are more bothered than men about how show home ready their houses are

I'm confused. I'm trying to work out if his viewpoints are bad enough for me to leave. Hence me coming on here. I feel fucked off but wanted to get other opinions.

If you want to leave just leave.
This sounds like you're waiting for your DH to say something to push you to leave.

As some pp have said in a way he's correct in saying with two people working FT it's difficult to find time to do much house wise especially with two small DC as well, I'd imagine times thin on the ground.

Maybe a bit of planning so the odd weekend could be used to do a room at a time.
Or ask a handyman for quotes and see if it's worth getting someone in to do the work.

I agree he's trying to distract you and wind you up, so you'll get annoyed and he can tell himself he's the "rational" one while you are a hopeless emotional woman. Meanwhile you've forgotten you were (presumably) talking about the need for more to get done with the renovations, is he dragging his feet and being lazy about that?

You never said you wanted the "perfect home", I'm presuming you are talking about more basic things like painting and plastering, mending leaky taps, keeping the house from falling down?

I think he sounds like a dick yes and you are not wrong to feel annoyed at this. That doesn't mean he has to be wrong about everything (e.g. it is shit that women still feel more pressure around the home than men) but he is very wrong to pretend women have somehow brought this on ourselves when the whole system we live within was invented and perpetuated by men. Does he really think a female-dominated society would have put women in charge of the cleaning for centuries while letting men off scot free? It's all bullshit in terms of his reasoning. Soooo many men think they're the rational ones, it's because they have a penis and they've been taught that that automatically makes them more correct.

Well - he is right about that! It is impossible for a couple to achieve everything family-wise and work-wise without something having to give - in your case it is the house renovations that you would like to both get on with. But it can't be done. You both only have so much time and energy.

The important thing is that you approach it as a team - if it needs for one of you to work part-time in order to get more balance then this should fall to either or both of you.

My DD and her OH have a good system going: she works full time, as she has greater earning power and quite likes her job, and he works part-time and shoulders the responsibility for shopping, cooking and school runs. It works for them. In the case of my other DDs it is the other way round - but the important thing is that there is always someone to do all the tasks needed and stuff gets done and there is balance in their lives.

"But I'm not insisting women stay at home. I'm just saying unless you pay for cleaners and handymen all the time, it's very hard to have a nice home if you're both working. And yet women still feel pressured to have nice homes. And I think feminism has made things harder for women in that sense"

Odd to conclude that the problem here is feminism and women becoming financially independent, rather than the social pressure to have a "nice home".

It sounds as if your issues are much deeper than this exchange, OP. Is he a good husband and dad generally? Are you happy (except when he's lecturing you on the evils of feminism)? Does he pull his weight?

Traditionally women didn't do restoration, the men in the family did that, the women did the caring, elderly relatives, young children etc. You could equally argue that small family sizes and the breakdown of the extended family has made life more difficult. The lack of traditional, essential skills, also has. If he doesn't pull his weight re house/child work then he's just a sexist, lazy cf. I'd end things on that basis, he's taking the piss out of you. On aside note, the double burden on women is setting us back. The Instagram homes do put pressure on some women and we need a backlash against that. Likewise Christmas etc. I'm glad wife work is starting to be challenged. You need to be on the same page re living conditions. There's a minimum when you have children, then it's a sliding scale upwards. It's fine for one partner to say that they aren't doing more if the standards needed are met. But not to kop out, even if working full time. Women saw to the home because the WC men's jobs were physically hard and long hours. Housework was more manual, but less fiddly and child rearing was feeding and clothing them, then at eight, or earlier they saw to themselves and pitched in with housework.

It is of course fantastic for employers that the wages only have to be attractive enough to one adult rather than to support a family. But then it's still mostly spineless men in politics not making employers pay better wages.
Yeah, he's dick with paper thin arguments.

He's happy enough with the house. Your husband doesn't want the stress of making it nicer (renovations). His view on the increase of women in the workplace over the last few decades is not really an opinion but a reporting of observations. He speaks the truth about the added stress, as do you about the lack of time.
If you asked your husband to help with specific cleaning or cooking to all cope through the week I'm assuming he would help. It seems you are not on the same page if you are thinking of major building updates.

i don't understand why you would think of leaving an otherwise nice partner due to that.

3 years is not that long.

Instagram has simply followed the good housekeeping type magazine, so it's not new. Keeping up with the Jones' isn't new.

He's a condescending prick

He's a dick but also, he has a point about 2 people working being a shit model in general. Problem is, we've now got my DH staying at home and I work full time, and I really hate it. He's incredibly anal about the housework, and perfect, but cooks the kids some utter shit (pizza/chips/fish fingers) because he's "too busy". I buy fresh veg I regularly have to throw out as it doesn't get cooked. So bought frozen veg. That's untouched because it "takes too long to microwave". Fucks sake. Nutrition is a lot more important than the bloody washing being perfect.

It doesn't sound as though OP was talking about throwing some Zoflora down the sink. She was talking about renovations. Hence why her DH suddenly turned it into feminism/sexism/cleaning - he was saying OP's responsible for the renovations and the scruffy cottage when actually, patriarchal societal expectations would say he was responsible for the renovations and feminism would say they should both muck in.
The only way this becomes about cleaning and feminism is because her DH is deliberately derailing the conversation as a way of refusing to even discuss how they can both stop the cottage being scruffy.

Sorry but I kind of agree with him op. Us women wanted change, and wanted to work (or fell for the lie. Depending on how you see it).

So we wanted change. Men didn't. I agree.
More often than not, the house not being picture perfect bothers women more than men. For those men that it bothers, they do something about it. I.e DIY and repairs etc.

Making a nice home has always been something women are better at than most men. Fact. Whether you are a working mother or not. That's why the majority of most single men live in disgusting flats that haven't been cleaned or decorated in a decade.

Men don't want to stay at home. He's just being brutally honest here and saying at loud what most men think. Even the most supportive and devoted husbands don't want to stay at home... modern feminism wants men to be at home but most men are saying no, what can we do ? They can't be forced...

So ultimately I guess your husband is saying the house doesn't bother him. But it bothers you. And whether you go to work or not, sounds like the responsibility of making and looking after the home will always be more on your shoulders than his because you care more.

Does his unhelpful attitude towards the house and you make him a dick ? Yes totally. Is this supportive towards you ? No it's not.

Question remains, like pp said, if you were to quit your FT job tomorrow and look after the kids 5 days a week, would he financially truly support you ? And I don't mean giving you an allowance... obviously. I mean full access to his salary and joint savings.

Hes using/blaming feminism to hide him being lazy so its a double whammy of unlikeable traits.

If you are going quiet while hes saying stuff like that it means he's ground you down. Look up boiled frog analogy.

Why would you have married someone who thinks like this about women in the first place? You'd talked before the wedding right?

He said "but we don't want to really. You were the ones that wanted to change the model and set up and then you're all stressing out you don't have time to do it all"

He pretty much admitted it: he expects women to do it all.

That's where his oh so rational logic fails. He's not talking about an equal division of labour. He expects women to work but still put in all the domestic work too.

Suggest you stop working and lose your income. Would he like that?

Us women wanted change, and wanted to work (or fell for the lie. Depending on how you see it).

Women have always worked.

The main difference now is that women are able to enter respected and well paid professions. Previously, only relatively low-status work was available to women.

You would leave your husband over these comments?

wow that is crazy !

The best of it is though is that you will get others on here encouraging you to leave him 🤣🤣🤣

Anyway can I ask about finances? Can you afford the work that needs doing?

As imo that is why you live in your current conditions - working makes no difference if you can afford work!

While it's true that Mumsnet advocates divorce for the tinest infractions imaginable, making most threads on the question basically useless, the OP has gone on to say there's much more going on here. Sounds like this argument is just the tip of the iceberg as far as their outlooks go.

Actually, I agree with him. Feminism in this respect has done us no favours. Equality in the workplace was supposed to give us opportunity and choice but it’s become essential for two people to work just to keep the ship afloat.