Grandfather smacked DS bottom

[ranblungs]

DS can have meltdowns/big tantrums, usually when he's very tired. More so when he's at his grandparents' house (ex's parents). They have communicated to me that they found his behaviour very difficult at one point, but it seems to have resolved now.

ExDP did live with them but moved our two weeks ago.

DS (aged 4) told me yesterday evening that grandad had smacked his bottom because he was being naughty and that it "really hurt" he got upset as he was telling me and cried. I get the impression this wasn't necessarily recent.

DS also can play up at bed time when he is there and he told me that grandad pushes him back onto the bed for being naughty at bed time.

I'm not sure what to do next?

They are huge sources of childcare, ExDP is supposed to have him two nights per week but often works away so they will have him. They also help out during the week as/when needed.

The relationship between us was once very strained when DS was tiny.

I am furious that he has hit my child. Am I overreacting as it was just a smack on the bottom?

DS can be very challenging there.

I know people are saying it's normal for that generation...but I'm that generation and none of my friends were ever smacked apart from in one family where the dad had a mental illness and was violent. It's possibly cultural rather than generational. Anyhow, the point is that they're an age where they're not senile and are presumably literate, grew up at a time when education and access to information were increasingly widespread, so are presumably not terribly disadvantaged by lack of education or resources and ought to have basic awareness.

Speak to them

In my work it would be a safeguarding concern. "Reasonable" would amount to where done to prevent danger to the child, e.g. running into a road, and parenting classes or support in finding strategies to prevent it would be mandatory.

I think you're overreacting a bit.
Seems I'm in the minority a bit though.
Then again this is Mumsnet.

If the grandad thought it was ok why were you not told about the smacking, he knew it was wrong so hid it from you!

Would you hit a child and not tell their parent?

I'm a bit undecided on this OP. If they are good grandparents in every other way I think you should speak to them and let them know that smacking is a definite no and he is never to do it again. Remember these people grew up when a smack on the bum was a standard form of discipline and not considered abusive. Perhaps they just need educating that this is no longer acceptable?

Just tell him not to do it again, and discuss other strategies you use at home. Smacking was a generational thing. If it doesn't happen again then there is no need to catastrophise by ceasing contact.

It is not "normal" for adults to hit (we can call it smacking, but it's hitting) and push little children. It doesn't matter who hit this 50 year old when he was a child, it was also acceptable to drink five pints and drive home from the pub pissed as fart, not use seatbelts, and lots of other things we do not do now because we know better. His age is not an excuse. It is not acceptable to hit a child in your care.

Again, if this was a very very cheap and convenient childminder, would we turn a blind eye to hitting and pushing of a four year old, no matter how challenging their behaviour? We would not, there would be uproar, it would be unacceptable.

You do not have the right to hit a child because you feel they "belong to you" in some way.

You need to talk to them OP. Make it clear they are not allowed to hit the child, then you can decide, based on their response, if you still want to use them as childcare.
It could be the catalyst though, he's too much for them anyway and if they can't cope with his behaviour, then that issue will move on to finding alternatives in childcare.

I totally agree it's not acceptable, but I think a conversation is reasonable before a total ban on then looking after the child.

Could you trust them though?

Far too sensible.

For a parent. He is not the child’s parent.
@LittleRedTomato explained the legal situation upthread.

Make your own arrangements . It's not worth everyone being upset

@Bigbadfish and @Ceilingplaits , it absolutely is illegal. The 'reasonable chastisement ' defence applies only to the parents on someone with PR, which is not the same as 'in loco parentis' and doesn't include grandparents even if they are caring for the child.at the time. The parents can't delegate this right to somebody without PR. This has been clarified in law before, back in the 1990s, and it went to a high enough court that it's absolutely firmly established. There's no reasonable chastisement defence in this case, even if the child runs into the road.

The case in the late 90s involved a private Christian school in, I think , Birmingham - one of the last in the country to use corporal punishment well into the 90s. They tried to claim parents were entitled to delegate this right as they were acting in loco parentis. They lost, decisively. Without this law, not only grandparents but schools would still be entitled to hit your children.

Oh god. Don’t send him again ! Why would you even contemplate this?! They smacked your child. I would be furious.

It's not about whether the grandfather is an awful person, or whether he "deserves" to be banned from looking after the child. It's about the little boy who has a right to be cared for by people who can be trusted not to hurt him, and to feel safe.

No adult who hit my child would ever be alone with them again. Simple.

It wouldn't even be a question. If someone assaulted my child I'd be murderous and they'd never look after him again.

if he's challenging there it's because he's being dragged from pillar to post with four adults and nursery looking after him all with different rules, personalities - and expectations. It's too much for a four year old.

A rubbish position for you to be put in since you are so dependent on them but I would be trying anything I could to find some alternative and to give DS more stability. I would make sure you tell him his grandad was wrong to hit him and that adults should never hit children. It's illegal where I live and I make sure my DDs know it so if it ever happens they'll hopefully tell me.

This says otherwise.

www.madeformums.com/school-and-family/smacking-children-what-are-the-laws-across-the-uk/

Also it's extremely unlikely this would go anywhere as there is no evidence.

The bottom line is again OP doesn't hold all the cards.

So communication is the only option.

It's incredible how many people use the "it's not illegal" argument. That's only because people are cunts.

There's no excuse to hit a young child.

OP speak to your work and see if you can amend yours hours temporarily.
Speak to your ex and see what he says. If he's ok with child abuse, it might not help, but he might be willing to start pulling his weight otherwise.

Do you have a relationship with your parents? Could you speak to nursery staff and see if anyone would babysit outside of nursery hours?

The grandad is my age and being smacked at home and being hit at school by teachers were both social norms in the 70's and early 80's!! It can be hard to move away from the behaviour that we grew up with but it is unacceptable now and its up to you OP and your ex to have the discussion as to whether they can promise not to hit. I have never purposefully hit my kids but have done it in anger ,regrettably , so its whether or not your ex-FIL a. has the awareness that he shouldn't hit your son b. has the skills to manage their own anger and choose other methods of managing your son.

I'm in my 70's and was brought up to believe smacking children round the head or on the bottom was wrong. A short tap on the hand or leg was OK. But we weren't smacked at home or school although my dh was caned at public school. Believe me this did him irreparable harm and he left school at 15 and home at 17.

I'm opposed to any form of hitting and a 4 year old is still very young. I think you and your ex need to discuss and agree how your child can be managed at his gps.

Entirely agree.

Exactly, why is he challenging when he's at their home. You need to protect your child with immediate effect.