BIL wants us to pay for their lifestyle

[MsPorridge]

Sorry for my English: not a native speaker. BIL has asked my partner to give them money every month because they "can't cope" with all the expenses.

My partner went to visit his brother and his family last week. I wasn't there. Brother started asking partner how we are coping with cost of living and partner was just honest and said that energy bills are more expensive, etc. but because our expenses have always been so low, we are ok. Brother kept asking questions and partner did not think of any hidden intentions and answered and gave details about our financial situation (they were not very specific but it was just made clear that we were able to save around 2000 per month, except when there is some unexpected cost that month).

For some background: we have no children, no car, no pets, love cooking our own meals, no expensive hobby and maybe we are just very busy to spend money (we spend our time volunteering for different causes, doing exercise, love going on walks which is free...). This is just how we enjoy our life and the saving part just naturally happens. We also own our flat outright because we bought a small one (we could have afforded a much bigger place but not complaining, it was just what we felt we needed) and payed our mortgage quickly. Now we make around 3000 per month combined, so not really a high-income by any means, but it's fine for our situation. Most months we only spend like 1000 and the rest goes to savings/investments. It does help that I've never been interested in make-up or having lots of nice clothes, none of us drink alcohol, etc.

Going back to the problem: his brother started almost crying to him asking if we could give them around 500 per month during an indefinite amount of time to help with the expenses. My partner is a really soft person who always wants to help everyone. I've had a few arguments with him because of this. So he didn't say a straight no and from what he has told me he made it sound like he would talk with me about it and almost like a yes. Apparently the brother said things like "it wouldn't make any difference to you two, right? It seems you are really very comfortable with your life but we are really struggling at the moment". He also mentioned how my partner had to go back to stay with their mum and stayed rent-free for a year (this was 10 years ago and he still seems bitter and about it) as if somehow this justifies what he's asking.

They have 3 children, live in a much nicer and bigger house than us, have 2 expensive cars, 1 dog, 1 cat and 2 rabbits, I see pictures of them dinning out often or going away for the weekend with the whole family, always seem to have new fancy clothes, always redecorating the house, and children have a few expensive hobbies/after-school activities etc. Which I'm happy for them and don't feel any jealousy about but also don't see this is a desperate situation in which they are asking for money to put a meal on the table or pay the mortgage. They just need to adjust. My partner feels very sad for them and thinks it's not fair for the children not to be able to enjoy their life as usual. I feel very very angry that his brother feels entitled to my partner's money just because he has chosen to live a frugal life.

I am really disappointed with my partner for allowing this to happen. Please help. He has agreed with me that is totally unacceptable to ask but does not want to upset him.

@WinterDeWinter response is excellent!
There are so many key points made and definitely worth pointing these out to your BIL

I don’t know how your partner didn’t laugh at the sheer audacity of the request. I would’ve, from the shock alone.

There’s zero chance I’d agree to loaning any money. This isn’t a crisis, this is poor money management with zero intention of change.

So they should sell their house and take their children out of their extra curricular activities because they are going through a rough patch?

Agree there are cultural factors here.

In many cultures the assumption is that wealth is more communal and someone with spare money should be sharing it.

Western society is more individualistic.

I'd offer to give them a once off gift to help buy them time to adjust their lifestyle and to cushion the children from being too adversely impacted. I wouldn't agree to subsidise them long term.

OP has addressed this in her second post. She is from a culture where this is the norm but DH and BIL are not.

That was unnecessary.

The only reason the OP has spare money is that they live a simple life without all the trappings of modern consumerism.

They earn less than the high spending ILs who have no money because they spend it all on luxuries. As the ILs are 'Western', cultural factors are irrelevant, they need to put their own house in order, without risking the OPs financial stability that has been earned due to financial prudence.

I am not so sure it is cultural in an English/elsewhere sort of way. My mother's carer was effectively the matriarch of a sprawling working class family that my mother (with dementia) got adopted into. They essentially formed a social security network of their own. Great for me as when my mother needed 24 hour care after a hospital stay, phone calls were made and various trusted friends and relatives were on a rota. I once organised a BBQ for her and her family, and it was lucky we over catered as 20 or more turned up. Even the kids who knew my mother from joining her and their grandmother in the park during half term to feed the ducks.

When my mother passed away, we made a large ex-gratia payment, which is what my mother would have wanted. However I held some back and instead make monthly payments. My instincts were correct. The lump sum disappeared fast into the wider family. Help in paying off pay-day loans, deposit on a rental flat, car repairs etc. Kind and generous people. I once read that research indicates the middle classes are more selfish. From my observation, this is true.

That said there is no indication that OPs BiL is proposing a two way arrangement. Would he do anything if OP and her DH needed help. My guess is probably not.

To give each month is not sustainable for your relationships - yours or the relationship you have with brother.

Offer a gift - to pay for them to see an accountant or financial advisor so that they can rearrange their financial affairs or offer to personally go through their budget to help them adjust.

Explain that you are saving for a better lifestyle/holiday/car/superannuation/investment property - whatever but that your excess money is not wasted.

Other than that, give a one off monetary gift that you are both happy to never see again and that you will never feel resentful about. Have no misunderstandings about that.

Think about the long term. It is not helpful to encourage and enable your brother to live beyond his needs. ( Though you can always choose to listen out for genuine hardship like if a kid needs a wheelchair etc.)

You DH could offer non financial support - eg to help them ask themselves how they could cut back ie either your DH or an independent third party go through their spending. You and your DH will need your savings so under no circumstances gift a family that lives excessively abd obviously beyond their means ant money. It does not help yhem, everyone has to sort their own budget. Tge only people I've helped have been working low income family members.

Citizens Axvice or other charity might help look at budgeting. Local authorities may also have someone.

Good luck x

I agree that it is not your responsibility to help fund their unnecessarily extravagant lifestyle. Ultimately, if you do decide to help, does that mean they will be happy to share the things they have bought with you? Will you be able to make use of their cars, property etc given that you are helping to sustain their lifestyle? I would imagine not!!

If it's a "rough patch" then selling their cars and cutting back on meals out etc should tide them through it.

If it's prolonged, then yes, they should move house and downsize.

After all, that's what they would be doing if they didn't have OP's partner to sponge off.

I think it was rude to ask and not ideal not to stop it. Against my better judgement but to keep family together I would suggest a one off gift, maybe take them on a summer holiday this year so one less expense but don’t get into paying a monthly amount.

Is this on the right thread?

I could imagine it might cause a rift in the family that would be very hard to repair
With scroungers like that in the family I would be looking to create a rift and never ever repair it!

If they go through their finances and realise that they are living so far beyond their means that that is necessary, then yes. You can’t live extravagantly and expect someone else to bail you out because you perceive that they can ‘afford’ it, even though they earn less than you.

If they’re living so far beyond their means that they’re in need of a contribution to make ends meet, then a family holiday isn’t a solution.

They essentially formed a social security network of their own. Great for me as when my mother needed 24 hour care after a hospital stay, phone calls were made and various trusted friends and relatives were on a rota.

This is a family you can count on. I think people have forgotten the meaning of the word. It's all about mistrust and how dare they ask for help.

I’m afraid the family would have to fracture for me. BIL is living beyond his means, earning more than the OP and her DH, and is looking to sponge off them because he’s obviously suspected, and had it confirmed by the OP’s DH, that they are careful with money and have savings.

Were I in the OP’s situation I would do three things. Firstly, I would tell DH that I am an equal partner in our relationship and that if he ever discusses our finances with anyone, family or not, then we will have a serious problem. Secondly I would want DH and I to present a united front and tell BIL that he should have approached us both directly instead of sidelining DH and probing around the issue of our finances in such an underhand way, before making his move on him. And thirdly, having agreed with DH beforehand, tell him that if he needs to find £500 a month he should look at his own finances to see where savings can be made, that we’re quite happy to help him do that and to offer any other advice on making ends meet. But I’d be making it clear that we’re not prepared to offer financial help under any circumstances.

It sounds to me as though the recent increase in interest rates on BIL’s mortgage or loans is a factor here, but they should be looking to cut down on extravagances, and if necessary maybe think about downsizing, before expecting family to finance a lifestyle choice.

I agree. And it sounds as though they have a huge amount of respect for each other. Much more respect than to live well beyond their means and then question another family member about their income and savings, before basically asking them to make a contribution towards maintaining their lifestyle, and regardless of the fact that they are the bigger earner. There’s a difference between asking for help and taking the mick.

Totally agree. If you feel the need to give something, a one off gift is far better than an on going arrangement that will leave you bitter. And perhaps a conversation about how saving is important for you, and you don’t want to compromise on it, just as having two cars and nights out is important for them. Everyone chooses how they live, but there’s no necessity for you to subsidise their chosen lifestyle.

I wouldn't even consider a one off gift become if you do it once they'll be back chapping the door. And once you've backed down once it's harder to back down a second time.

@MsPorridge I wouldn't give them a single penny, even as a one-off. It will just reinforce their existing behaviours and they will be back for more. Be absolute in your refusal.

The only gift i would consider giving them is a one year gift subscription to You Need A Budget. BIL and his family need to learn to live within their means. YNAB will guide them through that, including plenty of tough love along the way. Which will stop your partner feeling responsible for that too.

I agree with others that it is not okay for your partner to share confidential details of your shared finances with anyone at all, unless already discussed and agreed with you. He needs to be comfortable drawing a protective boundary around the two of you, even (especially?) with his family.

If your partner is insistent, you could suggest that you separate your incomes and savings so he can pay them £500 per month out of his own income, rather than any of yours, and you both pay for what you need out of your individual incomes and savings. I expect with that suggestion in mind he would be much less willing to pay £500 of his own income each month, rather than paying out of the joint income.

His brother needs to cut his cloth to live by his means, if that means selling an expensive car for a cheaper one, less holidays, downsizing the house etc then so be it, but as another poster has said, the best response in my opinion is along the lines of "DBIL, we are saving so we can one day afford a lifestyle like yours, we choose to live frugally so we can one day have the cars, holidays and house like yours. Giving away 1/6 of our monthly income to support your lifestyle will not allow us to improve ours".

You don't owe them the income you work for and the money you save by being frugal, just because they are not willing to reduce any of their outgoings.

YNAB has allowed my household to go from being cash-strapped, often not able to afford things until the next payday etc to having enough money for everything we need plus having the ability to save. Cannot recommend it enough. My mum introduced me and it's life changing. I agree that BIL, or anyone who needs help budgeting their income, looks into YNAB.