To worry about how right wing...

[TooBigForMyBoots]

...the UK is becoming? The scenes in Liverpool were shocking and I fear this is just the beginning.

They don’t want to be ignored either.

No they don't want to be ignored otherwise they wouldn't organise protests.

I still don't understand why you think I (we) shouldn't share links because of viewing numbers.

I’m not saying not to, you can link if you like

I guess it’s the nature of protests like that, they get exposure via Twitter, SM etc because people don’t like what they’re doing

But at the same time it does their exposure for them. One of those things with SM

I still don't understand why exposing them as the racists they are and that words used by ministers have consequences is a problem.

Ok well if you don’t you don’t.

But if it’s exposure they are after Twitter and SM will take what looks like a fairly small gathering and give it more than they can achieve without the help.

Yes, principle of counter-terrorism and extremism is that exposure to wide ranges of people confers a sense of legitimacy on them.

Viewing figures, for example, will be taken as giving them legitimacy. After all, they've no way of knowing what the viewer actually thinks so they simplify the interaction.

The point is NOT what is true, but what they believe to be true.

I didn’t know this for sure as was musing below on difficulty re exposure, but it’s v interesting

I think people in quite a few countries are becoming inclined to more extreme forms of protest. Which tend to lead to violence. On the left you have groups like ER, or in the US Antifa, it's not thinking that's completely limited to the right. A lot of this seems to originate in the US but gets imported.

My feeling is that it's really the effect of wider social breakdowns that are happening all over, and it's not limited to places with conservative governments by any stretch. Immigration and social upheaval, lack of stable communities and housing does seem to be one of the big drivers at the moment, where people get really upset.

I don't really think the population has become more right wing. I do think maybe more polarized, with loud voices on the extremes driving things. But even pretty centrist people are starting to feel like their standard political engagement isn't that effective, so they need to act by other means. Not usually violence, but it could lead to that.

I don't really think the population has become more right wing. I do think maybe more polarized, with loud voices on the extremes driving things.

Yes I agree with this to an extent - I think the country was just as right wing before, but these views were suppressed for a long time and sections of the media have almost normalised them now so people expressing themselves more vociferously, which gives the illusion that the country's become more right wing. The fact is, it always was. And like you say that's not limited to the right. Although I don't think the far left have had their ideas imported from America though, just exacerbated.

With centrists I'm not sure, but they do seem to be lashing out a lot more and often sound quite childish in their responses, maybe with frustration and probably because extremes are so entrenched in their bias and not willing to concede any 'give' in the debates.

Are XR violent? Disruptive, yes.

You could draw the line in a few places, I think. Some might say interfering with people's movement is violent. I wouldn't but it crosses a line.

But if you look at their rhetoric, how they have justified the stuff they do, it's the same thinking that justifies violent actions for causes. You see things like pipelines being targeted in some countries, for example, and it's the same kinds of arguments. Antifa is making the same kinds of arguments to justify violence. The Evergreen incident in the US made the same kinds of arguments.

So the idea is there simmering around and I think could easily boil over.

More right wing violence today. If the authorities don't get a handle on this we're in for a scary summer.

There are too many people claiming those orchestrating the rallies at hotels housing asylum seekers aren’t the organised far right. They’re either ignorant or have an agenda. Take a look at the one I went to in Rotherham and judge for yourself.

Warning: the film does contain very offensive language and tropes. We’ve edited much of it but left some of it in to show a) the sort of people who are organising and what they’re really like b) how successful the far right can be in charging already existing local tension.

twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1628689559138566147?t=nNyppuanwjL6nUGtSGAGYA&s=19

The UK is staunchly Conservative, has been so for most of its history, and the conservative party is lurching more and more to the right. Even if it's just out of opportunism. They are highly populist and right wing agendas are usually more popular.

Op I share your concern. Hugely. I think the whole of Europe is becoming more right wing. No, actually I think most of the world is.

I think this usually happens during an economic downturn but the after effects take decades to undo as once a society starts moving towards the right it's difficult to pull them back even when conditions improves.

@JustForThisOneTime compared to where? Can you say what you consider to be ‘right wing’? I was under the impression it was clear nationalism, belief in death penalty, anti LGB rights, belief in demonstrative national identity, low taxes and a punitive attitude to crime or disorder.

But here it just seems to mean anything other than unquestioning agreement in line with opinions such as those of Owen Jones.

What are the left wing doing about it other than arguing about rights for LGTBQ+ people? And antisemitism.

Tbf the more successful Labour government that got in was a departure in that it was to the centre of politics rather than the far left.

I doubt any party can swing people to the left these days. Starmer echoes the same points and there’s not much in it.

Imo borders will dominate politics over time as the world gets more volatile. Within that other policies could be a little to left. A good example is Aus with Labor gov but quite similar to centre right policies in some ways.

Oh come now. Britain is a conservative country with some curiously leftie aspects. That's why we never end up in some Bennite world but equally, people like Liz Truss get nowhere. Neither party nor the country can ever afford to have its headbangers in charge.

Well many just want around the centre. Which makes sense and why we get landslides with people not tied to any party

If you look at Labour landslides they always occur in the same way. The Conservatives have run public services into the ground, the economy is knackered and people are more reliant on public provision. They vote Labour to rebuild these services or as in after the war, invent them in the first place.

It's all just a little bit of history repeating.

I thought the strikes ended Labour in the 70s

Then the crash and war re Blair was a catalyst plus Brown not great

I suppose if you’re a Labour supporter you’ll write it your way but both sides have ended in bad times. So we switch

One side thinks they’re clearing up the other’s mess

It's about the balance. People always vote Labour when they cannot get good public services. It's always missed as a point by committed Tories because they don't use them but it is reason they lose. If the next election isn't majoring on that along with low growth I will be surprised.

Tories have won by too big an amount in past elections to not use public services.

Not many use private school for example compared to who voted for Johnson.

The last election was Brexit. But I would put money on the next election being run on the schools and NHS ticket. When that core of voters who use those, who can't get what they need, they change.

Most conservatives are OLD. They are rich. Poorer Tories and floating voters change their vote. That's when you get Labour governments.

It is hard, really hard for the financially secure 10 per cent who are mostly Tories to understand that motivation. But it is consistent when you have poor growth and public service cuts.

And Johnson promised big public spending. That was odd for a Conservative. It was I think totally decisive in winning the North.

Anyway, my literal money is on a Labour Government. I have made good money on Truss being elected and then thrown out. I made money on Sunak winning and Johnson being forced out.

My money is on Labour winning. The margin of victory is another thing. Current predictions from the polls are ludicrous. But 100 plus I think.