Why the hell do some parents do this?

[Atethehalloweenchocs]

Went out for a nice celebration lunch. It was a step up from your regular restaurant, the kind of place where chef sounds out an amuse bouche, there is one menu for the day, the waiters put on white gloves to bring your plates and cutlery etc etc. But pretentious, but had heard good things and it was amazing food. And expensive, but a celebration so we splashed out. Near us was a group which a young couple with their two children. One was a babe in arms who cried - fair enough, babies cry and after a while of not being able to quiet him or her, dad went out and walked around outside. Much appreciated that he did that. However, the other child, a girl of about 5 or 6, was allowed to sing, at the top of her voice for over an hour. The same line over and over, which I finally worked out was 'I don't care' from Let It Go. For a fucking hour. I get it is hard to manage kids in public sometimes but you could see people looking from all over the restaurant. If we had been in the local pub I would not have thought twice. But in a place which is way out of most peoples usual daily reach, am I unreasonable to think those parents should have said something to this child and told her to stop?

Atethehalloweenchocs How awful!

In a previous life as a Neuropsychologist I learned that long-term alcohol addicts sometimes had a habit of repeating a word or phrase often loudly. This was probably due to damage to the frontal lobes which control inhibition and keep us from impetuous and undesirable behaviour.

But even if the child has a condition that causes this repetitious behaviour, her parents owe it to others not to ruin their special day by taking her where she will be a great problem to them. In Autism this kind of problem, when I was working in the field, was effectively addressed with a kind and caring but firm education program. I'm probably out of date and things will have moved on a lot since I did that kind of work. But I do know that amazing progress has been made in the field of Autism and parents don't generally allow their children's behaviour to spoil people's enjoyment of a special treat such as dining out. Indeed the meal out would be a reward for achieving control over a repetitious behaviour for the child.

Actually repetition of a phrase of music, especially played loudly, has been used as a torture method. Even Nancy Sinatra’s “These Boots Are Made for Walkin’” was used in 1993, by federal and state military and law enforcement in Texas in the Waco siege on the Branch Davidians, the religious group led by David Koresh. They played music ranging from Tibetan chants and Christmas carols to pop songs.

Anyway, whatever the child's problems, YANBU!

You do realise it’s self entitlement to expect others to behave the same way as you right ? The girl was singing , not screaming or crying or throwing a tantrum . Get over yourself .
it must be only on MN that people see this awful children , mostly when I go out for a meal I see lots of grownups misbehaving

I think it makes you a great mum! I sincerely hope you get royally wined and dined in a lovely adult restaurant while a really good babysitter cares for your child.

My heart goes out to all the parents of disabled children who adapt their lives for the needs of the children. I met many. I also have such huge admiration for them. I must say too, the children were wonderful! I was doing research into Autism, quite a long time ago, and I really loved the Autistic community.

And the sheer ableism on this thread is honestly why the U.K. has so many issues !
people claiming disabled should stay home not to bother “ normal “ people ! The world is not perfect ! Disabled people live in it too ! How come you don’t adapt yourself for them ?
m just 2 days ago I had lunch in a very posh restaurant ( not that it matters but apparently it does in MN world ) where a couple had a severely disabled adult soon who make a squeek sound very loud for the whole time . Was it annoying ? Yes for the minute it took me to realise it wasn’t on purpose and where it was coming from . Then I put in my big girl pants and told my brain it was up to me to deal with it ! And I had a wonderful lunch and so did that couple and their son .

But even if the child has a condition that causes this repetitious behaviour, her parents owe it to others not to ruin their special day by taking her where she will be a great problem to them. I simply don’t agree that I “owe it” to others to keep my child hidden in case his presence offends them. I have no idea where or what you were studying or when because your post shows little or no understanding of the law or disability. Total twattery.

I don't agree that anyone owes anyone their absence. But if you are taking your children anywhere you have to manage them whether they are ND or not. The parents in the OP were ignoring the behaviour and that isn't on.

As I was saying before to a similar mum, you are a really good mum. You know your child and adapt the circumstances to suit her. I sympathise that it can make you feel isolated, but try not to over-think this, there are so many parents with children that cannot be taken to what I call 'adult dining restaurants'. Obviously it's the more general experiences that you feel sad to miss that I feel so sorry for you and your daughter over. I do hope her school is good and that you have an Autistic Society that are supportive.

I think the problem the OP had was because she was in one of those kind of dining places where one pays more and thus expects an atmosphere of calm and pleasantness.

I also agree with the Poster (apologies I don't have time to go through all posts) who said she held the Staff responsible for not asking the mother to keep her child quiet.

It might make the parents of a disabled child feel sad that they cannot take their child to a place such as the one described here. But surely, it's a very expensive and high class kind of eating place anyway, and geared more for adults? I probably would not have taken my children there anyway. I didn't take them to 'Adult' restaurants until they were well into their teens, simply because they were too young to appreciate that kind of setting. Couldn't people go to such a place, perhaps in the evening, with their Partner or friends and leave their children with a babysitter?

I do remember a boy who I was sure was Autistic, having his hair cut next to me. He screamed. The Hairdresser just got on with it. Of course the women around began the usual, 'He deserves ..., Someone should take him in hand... If my child did that...' In fact I was the only person inconvenienced as it was my hairdresser who asked me if she could stop doing me for a while and fit him in so he didn't have to wait. I knew he'd get more anxious so of course I didn't mind. I just tried saying gently to him and mum, that it won't hurt, won't take long and he'll look so handsome... I just felt so anguished for his mum. I knew he hated the closeness of the procedure but it had to be done and the best thing was just to get on with it. It did not take long after all. It was nothing like the OP's experience. The hair cut was necessary.

It might make the parents of a disabled child feel sad that they cannot take their child to a place such as the one described here. But surely, it's a very expensive and high class kind of eating place anyway, and geared more for adults? They can (and do), and expensive restaurants are geared for people who can afford them not a subset of society you deem acceptable. Your attitudes are extraordinary. Why do you think any of this nonsense?

I wouldn't take my NT DGC to the restaurant in the OP

They'd be bored and wouldn't appreciate the food.

For that same reason I wouldn't take my SN DGC either.

And as I said, lots of NT people wouldn't behave appropriately either and I don't think their behaviour should be allowed to ruin someone else's experience.

I on the other hand have children who liked eating out and have done it a great deal. We eat at table at home though so it wouldn’t be a stretch to do that in a restaurant.

I think its great that children are taught to appreciate good food and table manners, and great for you and your children (maybe even society!) that they are able to enjoy the experience and behave well. I would never want to deny you or anyone's children that. But we're talking about the opposite of you and your family here. A child that can't behave and parents who take no interest in managing that bad behaviour.

You demonstrate an abundance of ignorance. Not least that you resort to ad hominem arguments and lewd comments to try and bolster your arguments.
Unfortunately you have completely misunderstood what I said and you do not know my Professional Qualifications and experience.
As a disabled person I do know the Law on disability.
I also know it does not allow the disabled person to cause a public nuisance.
I have said many times here that there is a time and a place for children, disabled or not, and this restaurant is obviously very adult in its ambiance.
People pay to enjoy their meal in a pleasant atmosphere and that includes not being forced to suffer from a repetitive and noxious noise.
I also pointed out that repetition of all, or worse one line, of a song has been used as a torture method which proves it is a nuisance at the least and a very bad experience.

No parent should allow their child whatever the circumstances to ruin the pleasure for others of a special occasion such as dining in this kind of place. Because your child is disabled they do not have the right to be a nuisance to others. It is just the same as any child. If a disabled child is shouting in the street on the way to the shops that might well be fine. In a restaurant which people pay extra to enjoy the peaceful atmosphere, this can be avoided, and allowing them to be a noise nuisance there is not fine.

"Indeed the meal out would be a reward for achieving control over a repetitious behaviour for the child."

You mean the dog training approach. Eliminate all behaviours that some NT people don't like never mind how much distress and mental health issues are created for the autistic person.

I have said many times here that there is a time and a place for children, disabled or not, and this restaurant is obviously very adult in its ambiance. this is your opinion not law and of course I don’t know what your qualifications are or how competent you are. What I can tell you is that disabled people in the UK live in an inclusive society and their rights are enhanced not less than others. Children are obviously not excluded from this restaurant so it isn’t an “adult only” space.

You demonstrate an abundance of ignorance. Not least that you resort to ad hominem arguments and lewd comments to try and bolster your arguments. I’m not “making arguments” on MN we tend to call out twattery especially when it’s to encourage the exclusion of disabled people from the world. You “demonstrate an abundance” of it.

Generally speaking, I think it is inappropriate to take babies and young children to any sort of restaurant if the parents are unwilling to take a baby out if it cries or if a young child is being disruptive. Most parents would find it embarrassing if their children were being noisy and badly behaved, so it wouldn't be much fun for them, but those parents who couldn't care less make it very unpleasant for other diners.

I can imagine it must have been particularly annoying as it was a special occasion and a very expensive restaurant. However, I think diners at more modest venues should still expect children to behave properly and not make lots of noise. My guess is the noisy group were accustomed to expensive dining and it was no big deal for them - so just selfish really.

I think I would have either asked the disruptive party to quieten down or I would have asked a member of staff to go and speak to them.

Totally out of order. The mother should have told the girl to stop. I wouldn't have allowed my own child to sing at the top of its voice. The establishment should have had a word with the mother as it was upsetting the other diners.
You and the other diners paid more for the meal compared to a regular restaurant and one would have thought it not too much to enjoy ones meal in a relaxing enviroment. People can be so selfish with the "I'm all right, Jack" attitude these days. However, you ought to have had a word with the establishment.

The whole discussion of disability on this thread was split someone said SOME disabled people cannot pretend to be non disabled so I’m their case a more inclusive attitude should be adopted. Your ascertain that they should stay home or go somewhere else is what I and others objected to. I know you consider yourself highly educated in this area but I genuinely don’t think people with echolalia or verbal tics or volume control due to deafness should be excluded from any restaurant regardless of the bill at the end. I think my attitude is in line with the legal situation.

You genuinely limit outcomes by making young mums feel even more unwelcome in the world. You are doing harm by pushing the idea that they should stay home, feel embarrassed and are not welcome.

But the child was coping just fine, it’s the OP who wasn’t.*

Just stop. No one expects children to be perfectly behaved. And I dont believe the child was SEN - a lot of children repeat things, seemed she liked the song but that was the only line she could remember. As for asking the waiters - they were obviously not happy but there is only so much they could do. The responsibility is the parents, no one else's. And from the posts I have generally understood that the parents were nobs. For the posts about disability, I am certainly not suggesting that people with disabilities not go out. Was out yesterday and a family sat next to us with a very loud and very clearly SEN young adult. When she got really loud, they told her to bring down the volume level. Which is good parenting.

I think you were enduring OP not managing a fairly basic situation. Forget the disability question because really people were only answering the twats who suggest that those with disabilities should stay away until they are miraculously able or go to “cheap places” because the other diners don’t matter as much. The issue really is that you didn’t DO anything. You could have asked the waiters/manager if you could move, or the other table could be asked to modify their child’s behaviour. You could have just said to them that the noise was too intrusive. You did nothing so nothing changed.

I 100% would’ve mentioned it to the waiter and asked him to ask the mother to ask child to stop singing…
mots very entitled of the family to think everyone should have to put up with their child singing….. and actually whether she was special needs or not Is irrelevant, they still need to be taught what is acceptable behaviour… often it’s more important with SEN children to have firm boundaries

Yep I agree

"they still need to be taught what is acceptable behaviour… often it’s more important with SEN children to have firm boundaries"

I suppose you think that all behaviours caused by a person's disability are because they are choosing to be badly behaved.

It’s almost like nobody has ever heard of echolalia or verbal tics or Tourette’s. I’m sure people genuinely can’t believe that disabled people just need to try a bit harder 😱

Cool - a dictionary that teaches everyone how to speak fluent Millennial!

And on another thread there is concern about teacher recruitment. Maybe there is a link between poor parenting and then conflict when teachers try and implement rules. Children have established a pattern of behaviour and parents don’t see the point in rules being applied to their DC