Who is AIBU me or DH in regards to DD punching girl in her year.

[Pointlessworrying]

Our 14 year old DD is a wonderful, intelligent and happy girl, she is in Y9 at an independent all girls school and has a lovely bunch of friends.

She does however have quite a short fuse and like most teenage girls can be at times be quite grumpy, she also takes no prisoners and is quite good at putting up heathy barriers when it comes to her peers.

I would say she has a good sense of worth which we obviously encourage and the following is an isolated incident.

I caught the tale end of her telling her DS at the dinner table that a girl in her year had slapped her, the 1st time she had turned round she thought it must have been an accident, the 2nd she had asked her to stop the 3 time she actually caught her head and DD had turned round and punched her in the Jaw.

The girl was initially quite shocked and then had ran off an told a teacher supported by her friends. DD was asked by the teacher to have a chat she had explained the situation, teacher was really kind about it and just spoke to to DD about managing feelings and to come and talk to her in future.

However what has came out in this is this DH has fully supported DD in her actions, told her she was absolutely in the right and to do the same thing again.

Talking it over tonight he said that DD has the right the defend herself and couldn’t be punished for doing so, he also said that if she hadn’t retaliated in the way she did in found of a group of mean girls she would have opened herself up to bullying…

I however feel that DD has enough about her to do this without using her hands and worry that if this became more than a one off incident the repercussion it would have for her.

Mostly it’s highlighted that DH and I are obviously on quite different pages to how our DC should act in this kind of situation and wondered what people thought.

This would be seen as self defence though, so she hasn't done anything wrong

she was assaulted 3 times, and defended herself. Good.

I used to go along with the whole "don’t lower yourself to their level", but around here teenage and younger kids physically attack adults and carry knives. The police don’t even bother to come out for assaults. It's Billy big bollocks confrontation challenge. So if they've got the balls to low level provoke repeatedly, it's easier and safer in the long run to quickly take them down a peg with a bloody hard knock back. It's the only way to make them stop without escalation. I hate it, but I'd rather my kid wasn’t "jumped" en masse by a much larger, armed, group because they decided she's an easy target.

In general I’m with your DH. I wouldn’t have told her she can’t be punished. The school obviously could punish her. Most schools explicitly say they don’t accept self-defence as an excuse for assault (even though the law does). But it is really unlikely that any punishment from the school would be more damaging than allowing someone to bully her without consequence (and even more unlikely that telling a teacher after the fact would have resulted in consequences for the bully).

Your DD seems to have judged the situation perfectly in this case. If it was an emotional response I wouldn’t want to encourage that to the extent she would be more likely to do it again, but I wouldn’t want her to doubt what she did in this case. She has boundaries and enforced them. It is far better for her to feel able to enforce them herself than to be taught to rely on others to do it for her.

I would simply point out that the school could punish her if she does something similar again and she needs to be confident an action like hitting someone is a proportionate response and worth (to her) any possible consequences. That she should make sure, if she’s going to hit someone, she does it fully aware of what she’s doing and what could go wrong and not as a knee jerk/angry reaction.

Sorry OP, I have only read the first page.

Can any of the mums on here who think that the OP's DD shouldn't have defended herself, tell us exactly what she should have done please?

Should she have stood there just taking slap after slap after slap? Should she have turned her back on the bully and tried to walk away, not knowing if she was about to be attacked from the back? I always told my children to never start a (physical) argument, but yes to ending one, as quickly as possible.

@Pointlessworrying I am sure that many others here have already suggested this, but just in case they haven't, please, with the inclusion of both your DD, and your DH, discuss which Martial Art would most suit your DD from the ones available in your area. Then encourage her to attend lessons in it, as it not only teaches good self-defence practices, but also a very strong self discipline attitude. It should also instill a confidence in your DD that is great and necessary in it's own right, as well as the chance that she may emit an aura of self assurance - thereby hopefully alerting the bullies, and any possible future rapists or murderers, or even possible future gaslighting partners, to leave her alone.

Or rather than choose one of the Eastern Martial Arts, she could take up Boxing. My only concern there would be if she got the bug for contests, which could lead in the future to her boxing without a protective helmet? I don't know enough about modern boxing to know if fighting - or training - is ever allowed without a helmet these days, but to me that is a massive negative to the sport if it is.

If none of those are attractive to your DD, at least insist - through bribery and corruption if necessary, or circumspect removal of certain privileges, such as not being allowed to go and meet her friends in daylight, on her own - that she attends general self-defence classes.

I really believe that all girls and women should be taught self-defence, and also that sons like mine, that wouldn't say boo to a goose, and who would not have any idea or inclination on how to defend themselves, or others, should attend self-defence classes also. Maybe, as mothers, if we are also hopeless at things like self-defence, and sticking up for ourselves, we should lead our DC by example?

If things have not yet been sorted out agreeably enough between you, your offspring and your husband, then I hope the suggestions on this thread go a long way towards that end. This really does need sorting out urgently, please don't let it end up being brushed under the carpet, which seems such a reasonable and comfortable place for the dust and dirt to sit and be forgotten about - until one day the carpet needs to be raised, and all that dirt blows up in our faces... 🧹🧹🧹

Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Your DH supporting her is supporting bullying and at year 9 she’s very impressionable
You are absolutely right OP accepting her behaviour is appalling

Thanks @OldFan Yes I am looking into EMDR. Did you find it effective?

I don't think anyone is suggesting two wrongs make a right, but the real world isn't quite like trite infant school mottos.

The second 'wrong' was provoked and might well stop any further wrongs happening, at least to that particular victim.

If the teacher's response was only to talk to the DD about managing her feelings, it can't have been a very hard punch. It sounds a proportionate physical response tbh and hopefully the girl has had enough of a shock that she will leave her alone in future.

I’m confused - was it only the third attempt at a slap that connected? If so, punching back a bit OTT.

I think I’d be tempted to follow up with the teacher on this one.

Risk of all this ‘hit back harder’ is it assumes their kid has the ability to do this, and they may well end up in more danger if the other kid is actually tougher (or ‘harder’ as we said in my day 😀)

Good on her. She was hit 3 times before she hit back, and asked the girl to stop, that shows a good restraint on her part and certainly not the actions of someone with a 'short fuse'.
Sadly DH is right, bullies don't respond to being asked nicely to stop.
I'm sure she was shocked! She's probably used to getting away with it. I bet she'll thing twice before hitting DD or anyone else again!
Personally I'd be speaking to the school to see what action they are taking against a bully who hit my daughter 3 times unprovoked.

If you were the DD what would you have done to stop the slapping?

On that note are you saying if someone is being attacked/burgled/raped/etc that they should just take it because 'two wrongs don't make a right'.

The world is not black and white. Plenty of grey areas, and sometimes you have to fight.

As I've already said the bully learnt the consequences of their actions.

@OP it sounds like as much as you admire your daughter for knowing her own worth, you've possibly seen some behaviour at home that has worried you in the past. You mentioned a short fuse and her not knowing her own strength.

On the one hand, no your DD can't just stand there and take being bullied, and fight is just as normal a response to a threat as flight, freeze or fawn. Bullies escalate their behaviour too, once they realise they can get away with doing so. If the girl at school was able to slap your DD three times, was there any chance of your DD being able to get away? Or was it a situation where she was surrounded by other kids and couldn't leave? And why didn't anyone else stand up for your girl? Did anyone else run to fetch a teacher while the slaps were happening, or did they all stand around and gawp? If you haven't already, then I would definitely communicate to your daughter that you think she is worth defending.

On the other hand, it sounds like you're also worried that your DD could really hurt someone else someday. If I've understood what you've written correctly, that is also a valid concern. Because yes, a very disproportionate response could do real damage. And that's not just something that could get your DD into trouble; it's something your DD could really regret and hate about herself for the rest of her life. It could ultimately damage her.

There was a PP who mentioned that their own daughter took martial arts and understood what skills to use when standing up for herself, and what skills to restrain. I know Tae Kwon Do teaches a lot of defensive, blocking and disabling manoeuvres, and that these are taught well before anyone gets to punching through blocks of wood. I think Judo might be similar.

Assuming she isn't already, is there a chance your DD could be enrolled into a martial arts class? That might teach her some skills to defend herself proportionately in a setting that's safe to practice them. That could ultimately boost her confidence, and help her understand better when to fight back and how. And it might give her a physical outlet for her emotions, if you're genuinely worried about her temper.

It sounds to me like the teacher was almost glad the girl was punched but couldn't say so.

I can empathise with that feeling.

I'm with your DH sorry. However, these situations don't always pan out with justice administered in a fair manner. Both should be told to keep away from each other. There's always one tale from one side and one from the other.
Dp had an incident with his daughter and a boy at school, a group of boys and girls goading each other. An incident happened his daughter was suspended for a day.

He was called into a meeting with the year head, listen to the explanations, and assessed the information. Told his daughter to walk away in the future and agreed in the main with the school's assessment. Nonetheless, the school was told if the other party did not uphold their end of the agreement he would deal with it himself.

Yes I’m serious but you’re clearly in cuckoo land.

@MrWhippersnapper

Don't be insulting.

I'm not in 'cuckoo land' - I just live somewhere with better, engaged schools (based on your account) and where the schools I've experienced are proactive.

I'm sorry that has not been your experience.

Oh that's ok then 🙄🙄🙄

I honestly think that she did the right thing.
One thing is for sure, no one in school will try and slap her again.

What I meant is if you only get 18 months for killing someone in an unprovoked attack then the police are going to give fuck all notice of someone retaliating when they're being attacked.

The thing is if they hit back the school will never take their side. I've always told my son if you've been hit once walk away tell an adult but if you're being attacked defend yourself.

It wouldn’t. But in the eyes of the bully it would and would make her a target for future bullying.

Good for your daughter . It won’t happen again.
Never hit first but always hit harder!
My nephew was bullied relentlessly until he broke the bullies nose . No one ever said a word to him again.

Your daughter did the right thing, she exercised restraint at first and then it became clear it wasn't going to stop, she put a stop to it.

I'd have been happy with her actions too because to have continued letting this girl do that to her would have had bigger repercussions and she'd have been seen as a walkover. The only language some people understand is the one they use, in this instance the other girl chose violence and learnt a valuable lesson - you can't go round hitting people without expecting one back.

The fact is OP, your method wouldn't have achieved anything and would have likely only made the other girl braver and more willing to do it again or escalate things - with the added bonus of your daughter rightly or wrongly appearing weak to her peers (because this is how teenagers wee things). Your daughter is at the age where it's good to learn the different responses needed to handle different situations. When people talk about being streetwise, this is exactly what they mean and in this instance she chose the right response.

Have you not sent your kids on self defence courses?

If you had you wouldn't be asking this question.

A punch in the head would not be a proportionate response (and therefore would like fail reasonableness test for self defence) if you retaliated in response to a few slaps. You should ensure your child understands that a punch to the head can kill, and if it did or caused serious harm, it is very hard to establish that the defendant met the reasonableness test for self defence if charged with murder/ gbh.

So, if potentially fighting for your life, arguably reasonable. A few slaps v unlikely to meet the threshold (based on case law)

To defend yourself if slapped, consider defusing situation, deflecting blows, perhaps punching the attackers arm to prevent them doing it. Which was an example given above by a parent whose kid had had martial art training.

Stop telling your kids they can punch someone in the head and it will all be ok. They could end up I serious shit.

Get them on a self defence course. Both my DDs can get a man on the ground in seconds - they have been taught to do more if fighting for their life, under serious attack.

But for fuck sake anyone on here saying punching in the head is a good thing for kids to learn to do - give your heads a fucking wobble before your kid punches someone in the head and wobbles that persons brain around their skull.

Inform yourselves and your kids on how to protect yourself legitimately and safely.

If you insist on suggesting that a punch in the head is a good step, at least try to read up on the defence of self defence where used in response to force and violence. The lead cases on self defence will open your eyes to the reality of what you are recommending.

100% with your husband on this one.

Don’t teach your daughter not to defend herself.