what to do about dog problem?!

[sundaysundae1]

i know this comes up time and time again on here, and some people have very strong opinions on the situation, but after yet another walk where my dog was harassed by an absolute monster off the lead, and another tragic dog bite story in the news, im frankly sick of it.

I have a beautifully natured retriever who comes everywhere with me. We have horses and access to land, and he can run within the grounds of the property which is all fenced off anyway. We also frequently go to dog fields and dog areas where they are allowed off the lead. But when walking in public- parks, streets, countryside, fields and basically everywhere else, he stays on the lead. He is fully trained and socialised and i would trust him with my life and he largely ignores other people and animals unless they stop to pet him, but he is a dog! They can do impulsive things. I dont trust that he wouldnt get hyper and run up to a family to say hello and accidentally knock over a child with excitement, or that he wouldnt run up to another dog to play. He wouldnt mean any harm, but not everybody likes other dogs and frankly i wouldnt want a strange dog running up to me or my kids. Just because i think he's the cutest, most adorable boy in the world doesnt mean that to someone else he's not a terrifying giant slobbery monster that could hurt them. Therefore he stays on the lead at all times.

i am sick to the back fucking teeth of other idiotic and selfish dog owners letting their badly behaved dogs off the lead to approach other people and dogs. he is on the lead. he doesnt want to say hello and neither do i. I just dont undestand the mindset that that behaviour is ok? its even scarier around livestock in rural areas- i dont care how well trained your dog is, NOBODY can guarantee their dog wont impulsively chase sheep or animals. Even if these owners are so selfish not to care about others- dont they realise their dog could be shot dead by the farmer?! if you love your dog so much, why would you risk their safety like that?!

and as for the discussion about dangerous breeds and the massive increase in bites, we absolutely need to change the law around dog ownership. We need to tighten up about certain dog breeds. Yes, all dogs can bite and kill including my retriever, but some of these dogs are built like hippos and have traits bred specifically for fighting or aggression, and are completely unsuitable for 99% of owners. The idea that anyone upon turning 18 can go and buy an XL bully with absolutely no training or licensing is insane. Im sick of excuses that Rover the american mastiff x pittie x malinois x XL bullie is a safe gentle giant who wouldnt harm a fly. Im sure he is, but if he followed his instincts and breed traits and ended up mauling someone, it would be much more catastrophic than from other dogs. From a dog owner perspective, i dread seeing these dogs because im terrified of them breaking free and ripping my dog to shreds. I was harassed and chased by an out of control XL bully/pitbull type dog whilst on my horse which i genuinely thought would maul my horse with me on it. This animal was built like a tank and it was the most terrifying moment of my life.

I also want to clarify that I've actually owned 2 dogs of a breed considered to be 'bad' and they were dogs with a working purpose. Dogs like malinois' are largely unsuitable for non working homes and we need to stop pretending otherwise.

But on the flip side, the problematic dog owners with out of control dangerous breeds will still find a way to own these dogs- after all pitbulls are banned yet still a relatively common dog. And if these problematic owners are prevented buying these dogs and get a less notorious breed, will this breed then end up becoming problematic too?

people mention dog licenses and tighter control of dog ownership but the problematic dog owners dont care about that and it wont make a difference

we have a real problem with some entitled dog owners but i honestly dont know what the solution is!

Unfortunately, licensing laws will only be of use to responsible owners who wouldn’t dream of owning an xl bully.

This isn't correct, because one of the great things about licensing is you can use it to elevate the level of the offence committed.

So for example, if your dog bites someone and is licensed, £2000 fine. If not licensed, 2 year prison sentence.

Sorry but distance and cost and inconvenience of dog fields is irrelevant. You chose to get a dog, this is part of owning a dog

But currently it's not. I wouldn't have got a dog if the only space for off lead exercise was an enclosed dog field. The nearest one to us is 15 miles away. We have acres of open access woodland on our doorstep and I've done everything to ensure that my dog isn't a nuisance to others so she can run and swim off lead.

The environmental tax is a bit daft. I’m vegan and use biodegradable bags so I probably have a lower carbon footprint than you do, to be honest. Would you charge an environmental tax per child? For not separating your recycling? For not having a reusable bag at the supermarket?

I disagree a bit (not totally) because the breeds are very recognisable, and the fines huge. I agree no one irresponsible would bother getting a licence though.
Its in my eyes a little societal effort to start : you see one, you take a pic, you report it.
once people start getting huge fines, they may start thinking more

@Godlovesall26 sadly some people are totally irresponsible/stupid. I mentioned upthread that my dog was viciously attacked by a bull terrier type, I reported it to police giving the address of the owners description of the dog - police said they didn't have enough information to proceed. These people had little children in the same house, it still chills me to think of it.

www.eda.admin.ch/missions/mission-onu-geneve/en/home/manual-regime-privileges-and-immunities/introduction/manual-pets.htm

Here are the extensive laws in Switzerland, as an example.
So compulsory microchipping, compulsory liability insurance, dogs must be on leads in public places, etc. etc. and a local tax per year. Training used to be mandatory as well.

However, what I find best about the Swiss law is that they recognise the rights of the dog as well - as a significant animal welfare issue. If a dog is left for more than 4 hours the council can enforce etc. There is also enforcement with regards to fouling and not clearing up and actual available bins and bags in most councils (apparently).

“2. Animal protection
With regard to how to treat and look after one’s dog, the Federal Ordinance on the protection of animals (OPAn (fr)) includes, in particular, the following provisions (see articles 22 and 68):
Dogs must, each day, have sufficient contact with human beings and, as far as possible, other dogs.
Those kept in closed premises must be able, every day, to take exercise according to their needs and must, as far as possible, be able to romp in the open air.
Those kept tied up must be able to move around in an area of at least 20 m2 (20 square metres) and must not be attached using a choke chain.
Those kept in the open air must have a shelter and water available.
Anyone looking after a dog must take the necessary measures to prevent the dog endangering either human beings or animals.
Treating dogs with excessive harshness, firing shots to punish them, and using spike collars is prohibited.”

You don't need to have them in every area. In the same way you don't need police in every area to stop crime.

You police a % of areas at random and use the threat of being caught as a deterrent.

This is how policing works. And it worked long before speed cameras and CCTV.

ITS A DOG. Not a machine. I trust mine with my life but I’m sensible enough to risk other peoples livestock with the slim chance my dog could have a silly moment and chase something.

you are simply justifying irresponsible dog ownership. No dogs should be off the lead around other peoples livestock. And yes, it is part of owning a dog to take it to safe places off the lead. If, as you said, it’s too much of an inconvenience, then are not suitable to own a dog. That’s great you trust your kids, but your kids won’t kill entire flock of sheep if they decide to have a silly moment.

oh and by the way, it was a cavalier coming Charles spaniel that chased my pony as a child and nearly caused me to be paralysed, killed or worse. A dog that until then, had been frightened of horses. A dog that until then, it’s owners said was trained and would never have a silly moment. But guess what, it did. Stop trying to justify being so irresponsible.

The UK is in the dark ages when it comes to dogs and animal welfare.

Every year, we have new puppies in our park and yes, like kids, they can be annoying, noisy, a bit unruly. It's OK as long as they are not already large and heavy.

Just like I'm not going to go mad if a kid bumps onto me because they're not looking where they are going and their parent apologies, I smile and move on. They are learning about their environment and being in public. Same with dogs.

I am not so tolerant of older dogs who should be fully trained as I am not so much with teenagers, but again, life in public is just that. Not worth mulling over and enough to want to change the world.

And yes, it is part of owning a dog to take it to safe places off the lead. If, as you said, it’s too much of an inconvenience, then are not suitable to own a dog.

This is the crux of it. Too many people who don't go through that level of thought process to work out whether they are suitable to own a dog in terms of time, desire to train it, money, effort. They want a dog, so they go and buy one. End of story.

Positive reinforcement is great for that, but to each their opinions.
A treat if it’s done well : takes a little effort, but they’ll very quickly catch up on it !

www.eda.admin.ch/missions/mission-onu-geneve/en/home/manual-regime-privileges-and-immunities/introduction/manual-pets.html

Regarding the dog walking point, in Switzerland the law requires licences for anyone walking more than 3 dogs.
“Authorisation to walk or look after dogs:
Persons walking more than 3 dogs at a time, including their own dogs, are subject to a licence issued by Service of the consumption and the veterinary affairs (SCAV (fr)).”

I think the problem is that in this country dog ownership is seen as an entitlement not a privilege. Nobody has the right to own a dog and frankly some people are completely unsuitable

ITS A DOG. Not a machine. I trust mine with my life but I’m sensible enough to risk other peoples livestock with the slim chance my dog could have a silly moment and chase something
Still projecting! It is a concept you might struggle with but yes, I am as confident my small weary dog wouldn't hurt livestock as I'm I wouldn't. After all you never know, I could stubble and fall on a lamb. I'm not a machine either.

People like you are so annoying. If the local farmers who know my dog are happy with us, who are you to speak on their behalf! You don't know me or my dog. No need to make it personal.

It’s almost as if there’s something for dogs that stops them running away from owners and approaching other dogs and people

Oh that’s awful. Is it one of the banned breeds in England ? You’d probably have been in your rights to chase that up. Dreadful if the police don’t react though, not many systems to be realistic have really worked without fear of fines

Cool, you do you.

I love my dog too much to risk him having a silly moment (as all dogs including yours can do) and getting shot, which by the way don’t fool yourself at all, the farmer might be happy with you right now but if your dog decides to chase a sheep he will shoot it in an instant. I love my dog too much to risk that happening. I also care too much about other livestock, dogs and people to think my dog has the right to be off the lead. Maybe when you’ve been chased by an out of control dog and nearly killed (which was as ive said, until that point unbothered by livestock) it gives a bit more gravity to the situation and how badly it can go wrong.

oh and by the way, it was a cavalier coming Charles spaniel that chased my pony as a child and nearly caused me to be paralysed, killed or worse. A dog that until then, had been frightened of horses. A dog that until then, it’s owners said was trained and would never have a silly moment. But guess what, it did
Yes of course, and as a child you knew all that about the dog! You seem quite obsessed. I too had a bad experience at a pony club. A person honk their car horn loudly in the car park and my pony took off. Not nice but I didn't immediately thought I was about to die. I also don't go on a mission to ban all cars from honking! It was an unexpected incident. Every activity has an element of risk. We could also all live in bonkers to avoid them.

Well considering the owner walked their dog off the lead around our horses, yes I absolutely did know a lot about it. But if the sole purpose of the honking was for some other reason under the Highway Code then that’s fair, that’s a risk with going out hacking. But if it was honked to harass your pony then that’s illegal. The difference is that honking a horn can be for totally fair reasons under the Highway Code. There are NO fair reasons for letting your dog off the lead around other peoples livestock, and if you were really in pony club then they didn’t do a very good job teaching that message in your district.

I love my dog too much to risk that happening. I also care too much about other livestock, dogs and people to think my dog has the right to be off the lead
Wegot the message, your perfect and an example to follow. I think it's great you are protecting your dog and livestock in your circumstances.

I have myself more confidence in my dog than you do yours, just respect that. I too love my dog and livestock to be prepared to take risks. I have assessed that that risk was so low to be insignificant, certainly no higher than any risk we still face having taken all possible precautions.

@Godlovesall26 I'm not sure if it would have been on the banned list, many powerful bull breeds aren't. Still I was shocked at the police response - the incident wasn't long after one of these tragedies where a child was killed. As I carried my injured dog away I screamed at them "what if it had been a child?!!" No idea if it got through to them.

It’s a bad state of affairs when sensible dog ownership is seen as being perfect and high and mighty.

cool, like I said, you can’t trust your dog 100% because he’s an animal, but it’s great you feel able to assess that risk on behalf of others too.

Every activity has an element of risk.

This. I walk my dog offlead because he gets more exercise that way and finds it more stimulating. I suppose he could go rogue and start massacring sheep, but he's never given the smallest indication that he would and I've reduced the risk as much as possible by putting a lot of work into his training and by getting a very smart, responsive breed. The benefits outweigh the risk, in my view.

Same as everytime I drive my car, I risk having a stupid moment or a stroke or a sneeze at the wrong time and potentially killing someone else. But like every other driver or cyclist, I weigh it up and decide it's worth the risk for convenience.

Everytime someone has a child, they risk bringing into the world a person who could do something terrible. People still choose to have kids. (And people do infinitely more harm and violence than dogs.)

If you're going to brand 'taking risks' as selfish, you're going to find it hard to find people who aren't selfish.

I love animals but honestly it is getting to the point that I can't stand dogs because they're absolutely everywhere these days and it does my head in. Near me there is a busy Sunday morning market and everyone who owns a dog seems to bring theirs with them so you're constantly tripping over them - it can't be nice for them. When I was a child and we had dogs we used to be able to leave them for a (short) reasonable amount of time but these days no one seems able to leave them even to run a short errand to the shops.

I have cats and they're indoor because they're my pets and I have a responsibility to a) Keep them safe and b) Keep birds and other wildlife safe from them.

IMO all dogs should be on leads in public spaces 100% of the time. If you don't have a garden big enough for your dog to exercise off lead then you shouldn't have a dog.

And licenses should be required for owning larger breeds.