what to do about dog problem?!

[sundaysundae1]

i know this comes up time and time again on here, and some people have very strong opinions on the situation, but after yet another walk where my dog was harassed by an absolute monster off the lead, and another tragic dog bite story in the news, im frankly sick of it.

I have a beautifully natured retriever who comes everywhere with me. We have horses and access to land, and he can run within the grounds of the property which is all fenced off anyway. We also frequently go to dog fields and dog areas where they are allowed off the lead. But when walking in public- parks, streets, countryside, fields and basically everywhere else, he stays on the lead. He is fully trained and socialised and i would trust him with my life and he largely ignores other people and animals unless they stop to pet him, but he is a dog! They can do impulsive things. I dont trust that he wouldnt get hyper and run up to a family to say hello and accidentally knock over a child with excitement, or that he wouldnt run up to another dog to play. He wouldnt mean any harm, but not everybody likes other dogs and frankly i wouldnt want a strange dog running up to me or my kids. Just because i think he's the cutest, most adorable boy in the world doesnt mean that to someone else he's not a terrifying giant slobbery monster that could hurt them. Therefore he stays on the lead at all times.

i am sick to the back fucking teeth of other idiotic and selfish dog owners letting their badly behaved dogs off the lead to approach other people and dogs. he is on the lead. he doesnt want to say hello and neither do i. I just dont undestand the mindset that that behaviour is ok? its even scarier around livestock in rural areas- i dont care how well trained your dog is, NOBODY can guarantee their dog wont impulsively chase sheep or animals. Even if these owners are so selfish not to care about others- dont they realise their dog could be shot dead by the farmer?! if you love your dog so much, why would you risk their safety like that?!

and as for the discussion about dangerous breeds and the massive increase in bites, we absolutely need to change the law around dog ownership. We need to tighten up about certain dog breeds. Yes, all dogs can bite and kill including my retriever, but some of these dogs are built like hippos and have traits bred specifically for fighting or aggression, and are completely unsuitable for 99% of owners. The idea that anyone upon turning 18 can go and buy an XL bully with absolutely no training or licensing is insane. Im sick of excuses that Rover the american mastiff x pittie x malinois x XL bullie is a safe gentle giant who wouldnt harm a fly. Im sure he is, but if he followed his instincts and breed traits and ended up mauling someone, it would be much more catastrophic than from other dogs. From a dog owner perspective, i dread seeing these dogs because im terrified of them breaking free and ripping my dog to shreds. I was harassed and chased by an out of control XL bully/pitbull type dog whilst on my horse which i genuinely thought would maul my horse with me on it. This animal was built like a tank and it was the most terrifying moment of my life.

I also want to clarify that I've actually owned 2 dogs of a breed considered to be 'bad' and they were dogs with a working purpose. Dogs like malinois' are largely unsuitable for non working homes and we need to stop pretending otherwise.

But on the flip side, the problematic dog owners with out of control dangerous breeds will still find a way to own these dogs- after all pitbulls are banned yet still a relatively common dog. And if these problematic owners are prevented buying these dogs and get a less notorious breed, will this breed then end up becoming problematic too?

people mention dog licenses and tighter control of dog ownership but the problematic dog owners dont care about that and it wont make a difference

we have a real problem with some entitled dog owners but i honestly dont know what the solution is!

interesting point RE dogs not being put down. I actually agree - we are very sensitive to the idea that dogs could be put down for behaviour things but in some cases it’s for the best. A dog that’s known to be aggressive and has bitten and is not improving with training etc should NOT be passed along willy nilly. Somewhere along the line, someone or something will be attacked. I’m not in favour of dogs immediately getting put down either, and I know there are lots of stories of dogs who have been rehabilitated etc which is fantastic, but sometimes it is for the best that a dog is put down yet owners would be called cruel etc for this when actually it’s a responsible decision in some cases. It’s interesting because it’s very different to horses- if I had a horse that was dangerous and I had excluded all the usual problems, I would be seen as highly irresponsible for selling it on and passing on the problem, and people would look at me as the original owner as being in the wrong. It’s much more socially acceptable to have a horse euthanised for behaviour problems than it is a dog.

@Maverickess Excellent post that I fully support and just wanted to add that there is a fundamental reason that dogs are so much more of a threat than horses - dogs are predators whereas horses are prey animals. Dogs are carnivores whereas horses are herbivores. Huge differences in behaviour and the likelihood of causing harm.

I think dogs should be on leads (or walking to heel) in all public places, including the countryside, to protect people and wildlife. They should only be allowed to run loose on private property or in designated dog areas.

We should stop importing rescue dogs, and PTS many more dogs in rescues, particularly where there is any behavioural issue. We should also licence breeders and monitor them properly. Annual vet checks of premises should be compulsory. Breeders should be required to take back any dogs that the owner can't cope with for any reason. Most reputable breeders already do this. If this happened, rescues would then be there to help rehome dogs that have become homeless through no fault of their own - changes in circumstances, death etc. There are far too many dogs with behavioural issues living long-term in rescues.

@sundaysundae1 I agree that a change in attitude is required. You are right that most horse owners now understand that you don't sell or give away a problem horse, you PTS. This responsible attitude is needed in the dog world too.

The problem is this whole attitude of 'they're my fur baby and a member of the family and I won't kill my child!' No they're a pet who you are responsible for and that means doing the responsible thing and making the best decision for them.

Slightly off topic but so many people feel bad about rehoming their dogs as if the dogs are enjoying life shoved in the back garden to bark all day and never walked. Your dogs don't love you that much, they would much rather have an owner who will actually look after them.

I agree, and I am interested in the Swiss law mentioned upthread which says that the dog has a right to: walk, exercise, training, company etc and that an owner can have their dog taken away if they don't provide those things.

Can you imagine in UK!
There are dozens of dogs around here that don't get walked daily. It is pretty shocking actually

It’s the “oh don’t worry he’s friendly” brigade that fuck me right off. I couldn’t give two hoots if you think your dog is friendly he has no business sticking his head in my child’s buggy and face. I really dislike dogs and have a genuine fear of them, all the killings by these XL bullies recently proves my fear is not irrational.

None of that relates to anything I said, but then a lot of people on mumsnet seem to like arguing against points that haven't been made.

We did get a pup during lockdown, but several yrs in planning.
He's a large lab mix. We go training and he is spot on in class, however when our and about other dogs/people are just too exciting for him and his recall goes out of the window (still work in progress)He's not at all aggressive with them just a total goofball that gets way excited.
He is allowed off the leader on local fields where ican see in advance anyone in the area, back on Leader, unless I know the owner is happy for them to play Dog parks when we speak to others already in there. Couldn't do the beach off lead as I don't believe e I would have control. My main concern is that he would knock someone over and cause them an injury. As a responsible owner I can't allow that to happen.
My DGF was a shepherd who had dogs all his life. He would never 100% trust a dog because in his words all dogs can react and can bite .

I have a question. For those who own these kinds of breeds, do these incidents make you at all nervous? Does anyone ever think, hmm I have one of these dogs, and young kids at home. Is it safe to keep my dog?

Or do you just think, my dog is a big softy and we love him so he would never do this? It won’t happen to me; as I am a good owner and my dog is well-trained and loved.

If I owned one of the breeds involved, I would be quite nervous I think.

Course they don't think it will ever happen to them. Because their "little boy" is the bestest dog ever, one of the family, a big soft lump, trust them 100%. 🙄

God, yes me too. I still seethe with rage from years ago when ds was a baby in his stroller, this group of 6 women each walking at least one dog came walking past and one of the dogs starting barking viciously at the stroller and went for it, grabbing the wheel and shaking it whilst snarling, causing DS to scream in terror (I'm not exaggerating for effect). The woman FUCKING LAUGHED as she dragged the dog off and loudly said "Hahahahaha! Talk about childhood trauma!" and they all laughed their fucking heads off. I was too shaken at the time to react to them directly and was too busy comforting ds, but by God I am a reactive angry monster now and I don't think I couldn't stopped myself punching the bitch in the face.

Its my absolute pet hate. I love dogs dearly and my own dog is treated like royalty... but that doesn't mean I want someone elses horrible slobbery dog coming up and jumping/trying to say hello. And neither does my dog who is trying to mind his own business on his walk and doesn't want to 'say hello'. Fuck off. I dont care if its friendly or not.

And people who let their dogs stick their heads into buggies are absolutely INSANE. If the dog snaps (and nobody can 100% guarantee they won't) that child in the buggy can't escape and will literally have their face bitten off.

Just constant excuses from people who can't and wont control their dogs.

I don't get this knee jerk reaction to
trying to ' sort dogs ' . 99.9% of dogs are safe . It may not suit peoples preferences to have dogs in public but they are part of society . I have had dogs for 50 yrs and have walked all over . Never have we met the hate spouted by some on MN who clearly would rather eradicate the species altogether.
These dog attacks have happened in peoples private homes not out in public spaces . Immediate things that can be done are
Ban gumtree / preloved / FB advertising dogs .
Ban the indiscriminate breeding of these XL Bullies .
HA and Councils to ban ownership of large breeds in small properties and those with no outside garden . No more keeping of large dogs in 20ft backyards .
Owners of dogs that maim / kill / attack person or pet get a custodial sentence and a hefty fine .
As a starting point if there were sufficient ways of inhibiting people getting hold of these dogs it'd be a start .

I don’t have that kind of dog but I do have a lab. I am always aware that she is fairly powerful and could have an off day and snap or bite. Scares me actually even though she never has. It’s why I never have her off the lead unless we are in a secure field we’ve rented. It’s not worth the risk for me.

I do worry about her with my children sometimes. I try to never allow them to
be alone together but she is very, very tolerant of my kids. Never displays any sign of discomfort with them. And she’s very protective of them. She worries if the kids aren’t in her vision I.e if they are in a play park and she’s not allowed in. Do I 100% trust her. No, because she’s a dog… I think she’s the best dog in the world… but still a dog and just like with humans there’s always a possibility of an error.

Yes. Human beings are unpredictable. So I don’t know why some people think animals aren’t.

Better education on normal dog behaviour.

Better (not necessarily more) legislation surrounding animal welfare, dog breeding, dog control.

Better education on sourcing a dog and living with a dog.

And legislation made by actually listening to dog behaviour and welfare experts, rather than done as a knee jerk 'look here raging peasants, we're Doing Something'...

Just a quick skim through this thread shows plenty of people have zero idea on normal and safe dog behaviour - for example, 'friendly' dogs hurtling up to dogs on leads is just fine and if your dog doesn't like it, your dog is the one with the problem.

The things we need however, cost money and time and require experts, things that are very thin on the ground these days.

Very few fatalities (looking at the last 20 years, not the last 18 months which are an anomaly and I can think of several reasons why*) occur with dogs in a public place - so all this 'dogs should be on a short lead and muzzled' business would make no odds at all to the majority.

*Those in the dog industry warned pretty strongly, and it all fell on deaf ears, the moment lockdowns happened and puppy prices shot through the roof, that this WOULD have some really horrific, dramatic fall out in the years immediately following the pandemic.

Specifically, those years where the dogs produced wholly within the pandemic (ie bred BECAUSE those prices went sky high), so matings done post April 2020 will be:

Just reaching mature adult status - large breeds
Just reaching adolescence - large breeds
Actually mature adults - smaller breeds

Many of those will have already been through crappy training (HUGE rise in social media based aversive shock/prong magic quick fix style trainers), and multiple homes, which vastly increases the risk of dangerous behaviour problems and in particular, owner directed or human directed aggression.

Most of them will have really missed out on correct socialisation and habituation.

Many behaviour problems as a result of such methods and dogs being moved from home to home, or dogs not having needs met as people must return to work, will take a LONG time to become obvious and unmanageable, we don't tend to see them until adolescence at the earliest and in some - particularly in the big bullbreeds - until fairly late on or when they actually reach maturity.

Add to that, people don't tend to shift the dog on to someone else or ask for help until they feel like they've 'tried everything' which rarely means they actually have, it means they've messed the dog up further with shitty management (that usually means the dogs needs are even less well met) and shitty training.

@ForAReason

I own a SBT. I waited nearly 2 years for him from a breeder who has bred show lines for many generations for temperament. There are no rouge dogs in his pedigree, all are know for temperament. SBT show people have been concentrating on temperament for many years now due to the risk of them becoming a banned breed a number of years ago.

I have a 6 & 8 year old kids.

I got him as a puppy and have spent many hours training him from day one. He is two now and I spend time every day training him and reinforcing his learning. His behaviour is impeccable. He is a terrier so has a high energy, I knew before getting him I could satisfy this level with Canicross. If I didn't run I wouldn't of got a high energy dog. I have owned this breed before also.

Between his training, which is the basics being constantly reinforced along with scent work for his brain and caniX for his energy I feel he has full breed fulfilment so that alone should help make him a well balanced happy dog unlikely to show aggression...but not a guarantee

Do I worry about him biting my kids, well yes I am aware if he decide to the damage could be catastrophic.
My kids are warned about what "could" happen.
For instance if he is sleeping and I see them going over I will say, don't touch him he is sleeping. I will ask why do we not touch a sleeping dog - the kids need reinforcement of acceptability behaviour around dogs also constantly as well there kids .
If I see them try to cuddle him I say ... stop you will get your face bitten.
Both kids are fully away what a SBT was bred for and they know if he wanted to seriously harm them he could.
I think being honest with them makes them respect him, they know he potentially could kill them. My kids are never alone with him but if he was a Yorkie i would still be the same as even a tiny dog can do damage to a child's face.

I never allow him to interact with others kids. Because can I guarantee he wouldn't bite them ... no because he is a dog, and he has a mind of him own. So I don't risk other peoples children.

That said a well balanced , well bred SBT which is respected in the home, has breed fulfilment and is healthy can be a fantastic family dog as they have high tolerance levels. But I don't believe those levels should EVER be tested and I would never recommend this breed to a inexperienced home because if you get it wrong the consequences can be fatal.

Bull breeds including French bulldogs are not for your average dog owner. Some breeds need to be left to experienced owners who have time to invest into the dog for life.

You sound like you really know your stuff and don’t take risks. That’s good to hear.

Thank you @ForAReason I believe I am and I try to be one. I believe the risk of my kids being hurt is very small because I have many buffers in place to stop it. But ultimately a child living with a dog there will always be some risk.

Bull breeds can be fantastic dogs especially the SBT...but what's happening is bull breeds are being bought by totally unsuitable homes, and the consequences of this are fatal.

If you get it wrong with a toy dog the consequences is a child with a facial scars for life most likely. If you get it wrong with a bull breed your child can be dead.

I don’t really care how far away dog fields are from you- they exist. And are necessary especially when training recall in young puppies.

Dog fields can be problematic in themselves. We used one near us on a number of occasions and because they are public spaces anyone can bring their dog there. The only times I've had a negative experience with dominant behaviours toward my dog have been in dog fields. The only time I've witnessed a dog fight in the small dog field while I was there with a puppy was in a dog field. We stopped using them because irresponsible owners putting an underconfident dog into an enclosed space with other dogs is a recipe for disaster. We have only used them crack of dawn or in the rain when I knew it would be empty. Most dog trainers would recommend against using them because of the risk of your dog having a bad experience and becoming reactive as a result which is the opposite of what you'd try to achieve going there. The best work is done in a public space like a beach with a lead then long line lead then no lead but high value rewards to keep focus. And some dogs do need run off lead because it's what they are bread for especially working lines.

I have just checked on Preloved this morning and in my local area the majority of dogs available to buy are breeds that I would not want near my children. Many of them are not young puppies, but dogs needing to be rehomed and most of those say the dogs are great with children.

In my view, the first step would be to ban these adverts and the selling of these types of dogs other than by the original breeder. Any decent breeder would take back their dogs if they prove to be unsuitable.

CORRECT.

By dog fields, I’m referring to the private fields you can pay to book (usually £5-£15) for an hour or so and they exist all over the country. They are private so no other dogs would be there unless a group wanted to book together.

yes, some dogs are working dogs but that’s my point. Just because they’re working dogs it’s not a free pass to let them off the lead with poor recall or around other peoples livestock at all. If you have a working breed dog you have a responsibility to ensure they get enough exercise and stimulation and if you don’t/won’t take them to safe areas they can run about off the lead (eg enclosed dog fields) then you shouldn’t have a working breed dog. It’s not an excuse just to let them off anywhere just because it’s a working breed and needs exercise

Being afraid of everything if someone has a phobia of one thing?

You broke the mould, being that you're hysterical and extreme in your views 😄 how do you get anything done if you jump to such extreme conclusions?

To add to that, there's many posts on here from responsible owners? Strange 🤔