Alcholism opinions

[Dedoodedodi]

Hi, I'm not new to Mumsnet but have decided to name change, I'm after people's honest opinions on alcholism and wether it is a illness/disease or a self inflicted lifestyle choice, and if that changes somewhere in-between the two, so what may start as bad choices and blows into alcholism and the related Ill health and symptoms that comes from that where is the line drawn between choices and illness? I don't want to say who I am in this equation and why I'm interested in other opinions, as I want to be unbiased as possible. Alcholism does obviously become a life threatening illness in the later stages, if you for example had someone really close to you that you know normally personality and the way they are is lovely and fine but over time slipped more under would you say they had a disease they couldn't fully control? Same as if you got cancer for example, you can't control if you get that or not to best of ability, there's no rules around do or do not do this or that to avoid it, is it the same league or is it different, and if it is, then why please? Can it change someone's personality over time that you knew to be a normal kind quiet person, is it a illness they cant help,the person, combination? I will like opinions to wrap my head around this issue. Thankyou

I maybe have some more research to do around this as it is a lot more complex than I thought, and probably a lot more common than you'd know. I hate the fact people are probably judging her as a bad person or a failure when I just see her struggling really, I also don't want to enable drinking, I do believe it's a real illness as I know she wouldn't choose this and I do think in time to come we will learn more and attitudes to these kinds of things will change. She 'was' extremely successful and beautiful. She is not the same now,puffy and doesn't care too much about appearance,gets her self back a bit,slips again into no caring. She has had help a bit, but once she does a month or so good, she thinks she is fully cured, and what's the point of talking once a week to addiction counsellor? She says, is that the denial aspect? Then we start the cycle again after weeks or sometimes months,can't predict when will change

I'm very sceptical about the illness model. It means families and friends are sucked into enabling and care giving often at the expense of their own happiness. I expect there's a trauma link with a genetic vulnerability.

Not true for all of those with dependency issues I'm sure but the selfish callous behaviour can continue after the person has got sober, they have a toxic personality regardless, a kind of emptiness. It's more than selfish I don't know how to describe it. You see it a lot in spiritual communities/ movements with self styled gurus who were once using by have now found Rosie spiritual path and are manipulating cash out of vulnerable individuals whilst doing so. It's a load of bs to be honest.

I don't know. However, if you're trying to wrap your head around it as a person close to an alcoholic, to be honest, it doesn't matter. The fact that they may be ill rather than selfish doesn't make your life one bit easier. Nor does it mean it can be made to stop. Nor does it mean you won't be as hurt, damaged by and resentful of their actions sooner rather than later.
All the acceptance of it as an illness really does it remove blame from the person. Which I'm sure is helpful to them to see it as not their fault. It might be helpful to their loved ones too to believe the harm caused to them isn't deliberate, but that's about it.

@Dedoodedodi it must be so hard to watch your sister go through this. At that level of drinking she will almost certainly be having withdrawal symptoms when she tries to stop

Do you know how she feels about it? Has she ever spoken to you about it?

@pointythings speaks about this plainly and compassionately as always, and she's right there's nothing you can really do to make her stop

So many of us have been here

I'm inclined to agree with this.

Alcoholism itself isn’t life threatening is it?

Yes it is. The cause of death on SIL’s late husband’s death certificate was alcoholism.

I think it all starts out innocently enough, social drink with friends at the pub but with people prone to addiction it morphs into something else, drinking daily, drinking alone, hiding it all and knowing it isn't good but convincing yourself it's OK
It is a full on addiction and is hard to overcome in the same way other addictions are. Making it worse is family and friends who continue to drink around you.
It has killed by Step father and 3 months later my Father. As a result my sister and I don't drink ever. Even though we did as teens/young adults. Its too awful to think we too could go down that route.

Yes, I so agree.

I am not a fan of the illness approach to alcoholism and I know a lot of health professionals who are not either. But I think it is useful to try and alleviate some of the guilt people feel which may stop them from getting help. For me, it is a choice that people make at the beginning - to alleviate distress, or because they lack coping skills or because they like it. But then it becomes a cycle that is incredibly hard to break. Yes it can change personality, and lead to people doing things they would not otherwise do.

I do believe it’s an illness but my ex husband is an alcoholic and the selfishness that oozes from him makes me hate the “illness chat”. He believes as he works he’s not an alcoholic, no trauma in his life but his family are all drinkers (again functioning so all deny they’re alcoholics)

My poor son has been deeply affected by his dads drinking. Let down, dragged around house parties, left at home while he drinks with neighbours. Currently NC

I think I am a functioning alcoholic. No one would actually know, but I drink every day, vodka, so there is no smell ( in my mind).

I do it because I am unhappy and bored with my life. Alcohol makes me happy in the short term. I convince myself that I am NOT alcoholic because I can actually go teetotal for a week, fortnight, or so, but I always go back to it.

I have an addictive personality. I used to smoke, but gave that up, and alcohol replaced that need.

I think it is self imposed - no one made me do it, it started with a glass of wine whilst cooking, but my life would be miserable without it now, and no - I can't change the cause of it.

It's classed as a brain disorder I think now, Alcohol Use Disorder. It's progressive in that prolonged alcohol use does actually alter the nerve pathways in the brain for reward I think. Until eventually only alcohol brings pleasure / relieves the constant cycle of discomfort from withdrawal.

Louis Theroux did a programme on it and you can see how entrenched it has become in these peoples' lives

vimeo.com/263953740

I can see how it can spiral quite easily, I don't know how it does for some but not for others, may be more to it, personality traits, genetics etc,not sure. She's 34, she's been drinking heavily we think since about 27, secretly heavily really as had her own social life etc so wasn't that apparent until issues, until about last 18 months, less secretly since then as too hard to hide, things like shot of vodka in a coffee with family etc,things went downhill then, don't know do we intervene if she is actively drinking she will be really angry if we find the stash of empties,but she isn't like this all the time, I do believe this isn't her and if she actually thought she'd realise the seriousness she's really unwell but masking it with vodka, I want to help her but I know from reading it's often not helpful for them in this mindset,if she continues on the units she is she might not see 40 and most definitely not 50, in bad weeks it's near on 200 units,she's not big either I think that would influence the harm on liver but not sure but i guess it probably does, she's eating less,caring less, house and appearance, it's not her

Spot on.

Sorry to hear this. If you are drinking a lot of vodka you will be damaging your body in many ways. The fact that you hide your drinking means you are quite a way down the path. I wish you all the best.

I think there are two key things: If you are using alcohol to cope with daily life, then you are putting yourself at risk. It isn't a coping strategy, it's a poison which in some permutations happens to taste nice. And yes, I drink - but the day I find myself craving it to cope will be the day I go teetotal.

Secondly it doesn't really matter which causal model you feel is more appropriate. What matters is what you do when someone you love is in addiction, and that is what we need to do a lot more work on: teaching people to care for themselves, put themselves first, recognise what enabling looks like and step away from the guilt/rescuer perception of oneself.

@Dedodedo I am so sorry to hear this. Yes, that's dangerous levels and it hits women harder than men. My husband was 58 when he died - he always liked a drink, but it took him 7 years from starting his spiral to dying of heart disease.

I lost my Dad and brother to alcoholism. My aunt, my Dad’s sister also had it. So I do think there’s a genetic component to this addiction. But I also know that my Dad was almost certainly Aspergers and brother, adhd so I think in their case there was an element of self-medication because of their struggles and difficulties in social situations, etc. Spectrum disorders were not known about back in my Dad’s day, so he had to cope with this without any medical help or support. I don’t judge addicts - I saw my brother in torment because of his alcoholism. Sadly it took him at only 45.

If he has grown up with alcoholism in the family there will be trauma as you are experiencing with your own son.

As the daughter of an alcoholic who sold his business for 1.5 million in the 90s and ended up homeless, penniless and drank himself to death at 49 this was my view-

They are utterly selfish, it's not an illness and insulting to say this. Cancer is an illness, illnesses are things you have no choice over. Alcoholism is a lifestyle choice. There are signs you are starting to become addicted and they choose to ignore them instead of dealing with the issue which again is just selfish.
For a father to choose alcohol over a child again is totally selfish.

But then over the years I realised that a lot of my feelings were anger which were justified but weren't helping me see clearly.

I pity him now. He missed so much because alcohol just took over him. I think by the time the signs were there it was too late. I still don't see it as an illness but I do see it as an addiction and definitely not a lifestyle choice.
No one would choose addiction as lifestyle and he didn't choose alcohol over me it just took him against his will and he wasn't strong enough to fight it.

@HagridTheGiant I don't agree. I don't see how it can be an illness. Yes it's an addiction and alcohol is an addictive substance but it's not a disease.

@troppibambini6 my respects to you for the journey of insight you have completed.

I recognise the feelings of anger. I still have them when I think back to what my late husband put us all through. But I'm able to set them aside and realise they are an emotional reaction - which is a necessary part of grieving for the loss of a marriage and a partner, or in your case a father.

Having someone in addiction in your family certainly makes you think harder and question everything.

Thank you @pointythings you're right you certainly do.

It's taken me a long time to get where I am with it and I'm not totally at peace with it but I'm probably as close as I'm ever going to get.

It's sounds horrible but I kind of hope if he can look down he can see the utter devastation his selfish behaviour caused.

Maybe I'm not as at peace as I thought

I wish I'd understood better. My father was an alcoholic. What a shame - so much lost. Also an ex-partner - horrible, desperate.

My best friend - I think - is an alcoholic. She's always gone too far, got drunk at parties, always had a bottle of wine a night. It was something I could work round. Even though on occasion it was difficult. But it's getting worse. Nasty texts late at night, long miserable phone calls that she forgets afterwards, bad decisions.

I'm finally having to say that I'm going to distance myself - which makes her angry - but I won't allow myself to be her metaphorical punchbag any more.

But it starts with the choice - and the bullying and social pressure from them to be "fun", to buy drink, to "join in". At that point there is a choice. But I get there there quickly comes a point where there isn't.
This has been helpful to read.

@NearlyMidnight totally understand the need to step away and in my opinion the right thing to do.

I have no tolerance now. I know (as I'm sure you do) how utterly horrific it will become.

I can honestly say the only people I would be around for in addiction (god forbid) would be my children.

The only thing I know definitively about alcoholism is I won't tolerate it in myself or anyone with it.

I grew up a poor second best to alcohol and found myself slipping into the beginnings of an addiction in my early 30s.

About five years ago I realised dh is an alcoholic. Told him he either gave it up or I'd leave.

Both dh and I grew up around alcohol, but we are both committed to not ending up like our selfish Dads.

I won't even speak with alcoholics because there's no point. They won't be able to process a simple conversation and I refuse to have my time and energy wasted in that way.