To not allow BIL unsupervised access to my DS

[Hennyspennies]

I am seeking advice on this as I want to be sure I am doing the right thing by my DS and not for selfish reasons.

Warning : May be triggering, mentions sexual assault.

Back story - Strained relationship with BIL for the past 7 years. This was due to a breakdown in family relationships after BIL's DD sexually molested my DS. She was 11, DS was 1. My DS doesn't remember this, as he was unable to talk, we never found out what fully happened.

I believe there was no real responsibility taken, other than a quick sorry from my S & BIL when the incident happened. DN never spoke to me about it, or said sorry.
I believed DN needed help (another red flag incident when she was 6) but as far as I know never received any. It was swept under the rug.

Family were expected to get on as normal. My parents expected everyone to meet up as usual with no safeguarding issues re the kids or respect for my families difficult feelings at this time.
Things were strained.

I tried to speak with them about our feelings and concerns respectfully but nothing changed so I kept my distance.

Fast forward 7 years. My S & BIL have been in our lives on and off more frequently. Months in-between visits (they live near by). I still feel uncomfortable in their presence as they I've noticed they usually spend time with us when they want something.

My DS is really into football at the moment and BIL coaches a local kids team. Without asking me or my DH he told my son that he would take him to see football matches, teach him how to play etc. Has already bought him a football shirt.

Since BIL hasn't been involved in my DS life much and because of failure to safeguard him in the past, I feel uncomfortable with the idea of my DS going anywhere with him unsupervised. This applies to my S too. My DH agrees with me.

DS was super excited his U wanted to to all this with him of course. However, he is unaware of what happened when he was younger.

I felt it appropriate to agree to football trips and training so long as myself or DH are present. AIBU?

BIL keeps pushing for alone time with my DS. (He has 4 DD so appreciates my DS love of football).

I also have 2 older DD which he shows little interest in.

Any advice or thoughts welcome.

DN behaviour is still unstable now she is 18. Stealing, unemployed, strained relationships with bf's etc.

Classic signs of sexual abuse, along with either promiscuity, or conversely being very uncomfortable with her own sexuality.

I personally do not get the vibe that BIL is an abuser.

Unfortunately there is no "vibe" - that's how they get away with it.

Personally I would be very concerned about having this man around my child supervised or not.

He's already crossing boundaries -making promises to a child in hope of getting parents to go along with what he wants and making you doubt yourself.

I would be avoiding all family get togethers - you don't want to give impression to your son this is someone in your circle they can trust or that they "know" - I wouldn't want this man near my child full stop - however "nice" he appears.

I might also consider contacting SS again. None of this will be easy with a wider family in denial - but I would be doing it.

This.

If at all possible, I would quietly let DN know she can always come to you if she needs to talk.
From what you've said, BIL sounds very proficient at convincing children to act in his interest and it does not surprise me he volunteers with them.
Only in November did a govt report acknowledge the safeguarding issues of out-of-school settings.

This. His brazenness rings alarm bells me. As pp have said, incredibly rare for a 6, then 11 year old female to abuse a tiny child unless and indicates a strong possibility she was abused. His forcefulness of being with your DS, organising a match trip without consulting you all brings the phrase “ in plain sight” to mind. I wouldn’t let him near my child.

It's very rare any thread on Mumsnet is pretty much unanimous in its comments. Not a single poster, as far as I can see, has attempted to minimize this.
That says everything about how horrifying this is.

Your poor niece bears all the hallmarks of a very troubled young woman. It seems to me revealing that her parents have minimized and brushed off the seriousness of her childhood behaviour, and it's even more worrying that they haven't pushed out all the stops to get her help. I'd be curious to know what it was that caused Social Services to lose interest.

BiL can push extremely hard when it comes to attempting to gain unsupervised contact with your son, but apparently not to pursue intervention and support for his own daughter. That raises many questions. Red flags aside, and there's a whole minefield of them here, the fact that he isn't being at all secretive, but is bulldozing you when it comes to the question of contact with your DS, is just as worrying as cloak-and-dagger, secretive behaviour. He's completely brazen. This would be the case even if his motives were entirely benign, but the way he's gone about it this with your son shows a level of both manipulation and determination that I find very worrying.

This man would not be having any form of contact, supervised or unsupervised, with any child of mine.

I think it's weird when adults push for alone time with children, especially young children like your ds. That would instantly put me at unease so I would be saying no, regardless of the history

No , no , NO

Is BIL your DH’s brother? If so your DH can tell him to fuck right off and he will NEVER have access to your DS. Or if it’s his sister’s husband sit her down and explain, equally firmly, why her husband will not have access to your son.

He's really trampling over/circumventing your authority re your son; trying to make sure it's a fait accompli and you presumably feel bad denying your excited son ...... Again, total obtuseness or something else.

Given his dds's behaviour, one has to wonder.

No, no, no.

They failed their DD (and you/your son) by not investigating things last time. So their judgment is not sound. And as PPs say, anyone pushing for alone time with a child for ANY reason should not get it.

I also agree with not letting your son see any wider family members who would give your sister/BIL or niece unsupervised access to your son, either.

Please keep protecting your son.

You are definitely not BU.

I know it isn't your place to do anything, but if DN is still struggling in other areas of her life is there any way she could be signposted to someone that could help her? (Only as the rest of the family seem to be no use!) The fact that she was only 6 when a first instance occurred is so worrying and I agree with others that she has most likely been abused.

The sweeping under the carpet is so frustrating, everyone pretending everything is ok when your DS was/is at risk and this young girl has committed serious offences and leading a very troubled life.

If its her sisters husband it's an even weirder request too!

Sorry, missed that is your sister. Tell her straight, and stop letting family glossing over it.

can I ask what culture you are from? In my culture it is not uncommon for an uncle and nephew to be very close and do social things together.

In this case - there was an incident of sexual abuse I would not allow my child to be unsupervised with anyone in that family, assuming that the family may be pathological

I also agree with not letting your son see any wider family members who would give your sister/BIL or niece unsupervised access to your son, either.

This plus the risk of family events when everyone is watching which means in practise no-one is would also be a concern for me. Less contact your DS has with this side of the family sadly is probably safer.

As previously said:

It is incredibly rare for a female child to sexually abuse another child just out of the blue.
The chances are that that child has been sexually abused herself.

@Wiluli if you read the update you’ll see that your assumption/judgment about OP was wrong and unfair.

Trust your gut. You owe him nothing, and fancy manipulating the situation by telling your son before asking you. If U loves football (and football alone) so much, he won’t mind having you or your husband there… 🤷🏻‍♀️

Yanbu at all and anyone who thinks so is daft. I'd never let him near my ds ever if that were me

If you are not comfortable with your BIL being with your son, then there is no need to ask MN, just do not allow that.
But you do ask, and if you genuinely want an objective point of view, you should be clear describing the situation.

You said
BIL's DD sexually molested my DS. She was 11, DS was 1. My DS doesn't remember this, as he was unable to talk, we never found out what fully happened.
How did you know that something harmful happened to your son? Did the niece tell you about it?

You also said
BIL keeps pushing for alone time with my DS
How exactly? Maybe you interpret the most innocent suggestions in the wrong way?

Without asking me or my DH he told my son that he would take him to see football matches, teach him how to play etc. Has already bought him a football shirt.
I cannot see anything wrong with this as such. It might have been a short conversation, and your son, being into football, made it into a big deal. As for not "asking" you or your DH, do you always ask your sister's approval before you are going to talk to your nieces?

Your gut feeling is the most important thing here, but I think you might have (perhaps, unconsciously) twisted the situation to justify yourself. You don't need to.

🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩Red flag…

Presumably there's a sister to either you or DH that is married to this BIL? What's her role in this? What's the relationship with her like?

But yes, I echo what everyone else is saying. YANBU and I wouldn't let my son anywhere near this family unsupervised.

Speaking to your Ds without either of you being aware of it, promising things he would like such as teaching him football and buying the shirt, he would be cut off immediately. I have done some safeguarding training and this rings grooming alarm bells to me.

I would not allow this man anywhere near my child with any access to my child. He has no common sense judgement as he went behind your back, secretly arranging this with your child. Now when you say no you look like the bad people and he will want to spend time with the cool Uncle who promised him these things.

Abusers are clever, gain access to children, provide things their parents don't. They are Dads and Uncles, Grandads and football coaches. Dh was contacted by the police to ask about his time in a youth football club as the coach had sexually abused some of the players.

I experienced CSA from a 'trusted' relative who everyone would have deemed to be utterly harmless.

Anyway, I am very careful about who DS spends time with and I have zero qualms saying a hard no if there's any situation where my gut is telling me it could lead to a potentially unsafe situation for him. I won't apologise for it. I know from experience how long that stuff stays with you way into adulthood. But that caution applies to all adults in my child's life equally, so I'm not singling out anyone to treat differently.

I would never buy something for a younger relative without their parents knowledge or consent. I would never offer to do things or bring them somewhere directly - it's always through their parents. Always above board. And if it's no, I don't need to know why or get offended - their kids, their rules, whatever their reasons.

No way. I'd not allow any alone time! It's weird that he's so intent on it. Absolutely zero chance my son would be spending time with this guy