To feel grabby and uncomfortable with this.

[abstractplantpot]

Background - i'm married with kids we own our house and a small business. Sister single by choice owns her own house works full time and has a horse.

My father died 5 yrs ago and mum is left with the house they lived in and a small savings pot. She has been diagnosed with dementia and is needing increasing care.

My sister had talked about either renting her house out or selling it to move in with mum as she would eventually like to live in that house herself. This is fine by me. At the moment we share her care. I also do all the household business like keeping bills paid ensuring she has food and everything she needs.

Sister was advised by "the girls in work" to get legal advice before she did this as she could end up loosing out. I agreed and wanted us to get the correct info on how to do this legally and above board.

I couldn't go with her as i had no child care for the time she made the appointment so she went alone.

She has come back from the solicitor and said she doesn't need to move in with mum. She wants to open a bank account in her name and my name and transfer mums savings to it. Then get the house put into our names. with a document saying mum can live there untill she's no longer able.

For me this doesn't solve the problem of mum needing care! She has gone into that appointment trying to protect her inheritance and not looked at how we can help mum.

She's telling me she needs to look after her own interests as she hasn't got anyone else to do it for her. I have a husband she has no one. She is pushing me to do this quickly as she said we have to have it done for three years otherwise if mum goes into a home she will loose the house.

She isn't listening when i mention this doesn't help with caring for mum.

i do not want to do the joint account as it will mean my earnings for this year will push up to the next tax bracket. we own a business and this will be an asset. She's happy to move it into an account
solely in her name which again i'm fine
with but what about caring for mum.

Am i being unreasonable for being uncomfortable with this. I was happy to do it when she was moving into the house (happy to get deeds in her name or joint names not the bank account) to care for mum when she wasn't at work. i'd have gone in during the day. But now she's forgotten all about mum and is concentrating on the money.

How can i make her see i'm unhappy with this with out seeming i'm selfish.
thanks.

Also, tell her you have two incomes because you have two people's expenses to pay! It's not just free money. And in fact, the existence of the children means you have much greater financial burdens than she does...

As your mum has existing care needs it would be classed as a derivation of assets if she needs to go into a card home- which as she has dementia is not unlikely, she will be classed as having the full value of the house, and savings and would be liable for full care costs. It's a terrible idea!

If people move assets to protect them from being used to pay for care, even if they get away with it, this means that the Council or Health Board decide on the facility or level of care. And this may not be the type of care you want for your mother.

My siblings and I - with our mother's full agreement - decided to sell her house and invest the money to provide an income stream to ensure she could be cared for in an excellent care home.

When it comes to your mum needing to pay for care then the local authority will look at where assets have gone. Look up deprivation of assets. There is no limit as to how far they can go back when it come to giving away property. Why people try to do this is beyond me. your mum having assets will buy her a better quality of care.

They're couldn't be a clearer case of deprivation of assets.

Your mum has already been diagnosed with dementia. Any movement of her funds or property now would be looked into when she needs care, as she will. It's absolutely crystal clear that you know she will need care and you're trying to avoid paying for it.

Had she put the house in your names when she was fit and healthy, younger and with no reason to think she'd need care, it might not be picked up say 15 years later. But absolutely NO solicitor would advise this, if they know she already has a dementia diagnosis.

The people at the Age Concern helpline are brilliant. They are very knowledgeable about benefits and legal stuff. Give them a ring and they will confirm that this is madness.
And of course her will cannot be changed, given her diagnosis @abstractplantpot

If the council decide it's Deprivation Of Assets then they can, and do, go after the people who have benefited financially from it. So if your sister followed her plan and your Mother needed care, the council could have a court place a charge on any property you or your sister owned, in order to claw back any costs for care for your Mother.

How old is your sister?
A friend's daughter who has never owned a property moved back into her parents' house when she was 60 to care for them. Her employer has arranged for her to work from home part-time.
The rules state that if her parents have to go into a care home the house cannot be sold because there is a relative aged 60 or over living there - she has no other property having given up her rental property.
I do not criticise her for doing this - she is an only child and by doing this is taking on her parents' care for the time being and also protecting her future inheritance.

If you are funded under a deferred payment because you own your own home you are treated as self funding. This means you can be placed in am more expensive (better care home) as you don't have to be funded as council rates so it can make a difference to the care you receive.

Your sister is a piece of work and you need to wake up to it.

Agree to nothing.

Thank god you have POA or you could have had a battle on your hands.

Your poor mother with a daughter like that trying to financially abuse her.

OP, wake up and see this for what it is and be prepared to fall out with your sister.

No solicitor has advised her to rip off her mother.

Step away from her and agree nothing.

I think emailing her asking her to spell out the specific advice that she has been given, and by whom, name the solicitor, would be a good idea, so that you can "check it out further".

Let her write down her plan for elder financial abuse.........

What a piece of work.

Do not trust her.

The chances a solicitor told her this are remote.

Ask for the solicitors details as you would like a chat with them. Go from there.

Jesus, your sister is a piece of work. A stupid one at that.

@abstractplantpot DO NOT DO THIS for the many reasons people have already told you. It's Fraud and you personally could be held to account. The 3 years things is rubbish so I suspect too your sister is lying to you. Maybe she didn't like what she was told by the solicitor and has told you a lie as a result? Inheritance Tax has a 7 year cut off point - and there is NO time limit on Councils considering whether someone has 'deliberately deprived themselves of assets)' and refusing to pay for care until the equivalent amount of most of those deprived assets have been used.

It's important to know for the purposes of giving you advice whether the Power of Attorney is solely is your name or whether your sister has joint Power of Attorney? Does the POA cover Finance AND Welfare? The writing of these documents while achieving the same end vary depending where you are in the UK and are called slightly different things. They also need to be actually registered too with the Office of the Public Guardian

If you have SOLE POA for your Mother covering her Finances then for the purposes of the Law you ARE your Mother for all financial dealings in her name ( including selling her home) and you are charged with doing everything in your Mother's best Interest. I had sole financial POA for my late Mother and I had a 'grabby' Sister too so I'm coming at this with a lot of knowledge!

I think you need to speak to a solicitor yourself urgently.

Your mother already has dementia? Then that will almost certainly be seen as deprivation of assets should/when care needs arise, and with dementia, it’s highly likely to be sooner rather than later. Not even mentioning the theft angle. No solicitor has told your sister this, is it not her idiot colleagues?

This

You’ve had lots of advice re moral side of this
Im going to stick to the financial HMRC nightmare

1. unless the rules have changed in the last 6years I believe it’s 7 yrs ( at least ) that social services can check on home ownership and assets. Even after the deadline they will check and ask questions as to why ownership changed.
2. If the house goes into your ownership it becomes a ‘second property’. So if you move house you have to declare you own another property and pay HMRC tax on your new property, ie your second property. So a £200,000 house and HMRC gets £6000. Charged at source when you buy. You must remember to declare to HMRC which of the properties you’re living in.
3. When you sell your mums house you’ll also have to pay capital gains. ( unless you’re living in it) If you’re earning more than your sister you’ll pay more tax as it’s based on earnings.
4. If your mums savings are moved into an account in your/ your sisters name, it’s obvious what’s going on. Ie avoidance of care fees. It will be difficult to talk your way out of this and I would be very worried about this.

I know ive stuck to the purely financial aspect which may sound uncaring but it’s important to know this. Definately get legal advice as you don’t want to be charged with the above fees or fraud.

Sorry, that didn’t work. what I meant to do was agree about deprivation of assets. Age UK have some rally helpful leaflets about all this.

So she wants to move in with your mum for free and rent her own house out for income? No way your mum's money is her's while she is still alive. If she hasn't already you could support her to make a will. But she may need her money to pay for her care if you can no longer provide it for her in her own home.

I really feel for you . I organised all my fathers finances for quite a few years when he was no longer able to . Towards the end I managed with a lot of difficulty to move him into assisted living close to family which worked really well . I continued all the finances until the end and my relative took on the additional care when needed but in return she was paid and we kept all records which worked fine . But at the funeral all I heard was how much she had done , all the caring , sacrificed so much . I was annoyed . To put it mildly .

It's stupid anyway. We looked into doing something similar (at the advice of a financial advisor) but putting mums house in four people's names including hers. This would allow her to still live there. this was mostly considered to avoid the massive inheritance tax bill that would be due on her million pound property as she is divorced.

The problems with this are several,

1. deprivation of assets as above.
2. Arguably, legally mum would be expected to pay market rent to the rest of us unless we also lived in the house (none of us wanted to)
3. By putting the house in our names, 'mum's' house would become assets of her children's estates. We are all married, with property and two of us have businesses. If any of us were to divorce, get into debt, go bankrupt, or just turn into a jerk and try to get 'our' asset, mums house might have to be sold from under her to fund one of the siblings.

We decided that wasn't a risk worth taking. You need to be really careful with advisors as they often just think about the number of zeros and not about the people and family dynamics at play and the risks.

And as a PS - you keep saying you are 'fine with this' in relation to several things - including transferring all your Mum's savings into an account solely in your Sister's name. This would be madness. Once she has the money in her name your Mum has no legal right to it - and your Sister could refuse to hand it over for Mum's care.

Doesn't matter HOW much you trust her, it is a common, very common experience that many family members turn into money grabbing monsters when it comes down to an inheritance. The same is true of an account in joint names - one person could empty the account. It isn't a matter of not trusting someone, it's common sense and any competent solicitor will tell you the same thing. DO NOT DO IT

Don’t think a solicitor has said this to your sister. Whoever it is that has told her this is a twat imo. Get your own advice and don’t be swayed by having a family when it comes to a fair split, which I hope isn’t for a long time and your mum has a lovely life!

She can't do any of that as your POA.

she's trying to rob your mum blind, why is she even thinking of inheritance when your mum is very much alive?

Don't be harassed by your sister into doing anything before you've had legal advice. Age Concern has some useful information on legal stuff.

I'd say to sis that this is such a change in what was originally proposed, so you'd like to see the solicitor's advice in writing so you can properly understand and digest.

Once you have that, and you've read it, you should make an appointment with Age UK or CAB or similar qualified advisors who have experience in finances and care provision. A solicitor will advise on the financial aspect, but you are rightly prioritising mum's care needs first and foremost as well as what she needs to lead the happiest life possible in her later years.

It's essential that

• your Mum has funds to cover care costs if she needs them.
• you and your sis is properly protected from any claim of deprivation of assets
• you and your sis are recompensed for any costs you incur
• neither you or your sis gain financially from any transaction over and above what Mum's Will intends, unless you both agree specific and written down actions.

Its sad that this seems so transactional, but from what you've written, your sis benefits financially and your mum doesn't have the extra care she will be needing nor the funds to buy that for herself from her assets. Not to mention questionable legal and moral decisions.