To feel grabby and uncomfortable with this.

[abstractplantpot]

Background - i'm married with kids we own our house and a small business. Sister single by choice owns her own house works full time and has a horse.

My father died 5 yrs ago and mum is left with the house they lived in and a small savings pot. She has been diagnosed with dementia and is needing increasing care.

My sister had talked about either renting her house out or selling it to move in with mum as she would eventually like to live in that house herself. This is fine by me. At the moment we share her care. I also do all the household business like keeping bills paid ensuring she has food and everything she needs.

Sister was advised by "the girls in work" to get legal advice before she did this as she could end up loosing out. I agreed and wanted us to get the correct info on how to do this legally and above board.

I couldn't go with her as i had no child care for the time she made the appointment so she went alone.

She has come back from the solicitor and said she doesn't need to move in with mum. She wants to open a bank account in her name and my name and transfer mums savings to it. Then get the house put into our names. with a document saying mum can live there untill she's no longer able.

For me this doesn't solve the problem of mum needing care! She has gone into that appointment trying to protect her inheritance and not looked at how we can help mum.

She's telling me she needs to look after her own interests as she hasn't got anyone else to do it for her. I have a husband she has no one. She is pushing me to do this quickly as she said we have to have it done for three years otherwise if mum goes into a home she will loose the house.

She isn't listening when i mention this doesn't help with caring for mum.

i do not want to do the joint account as it will mean my earnings for this year will push up to the next tax bracket. we own a business and this will be an asset. She's happy to move it into an account
solely in her name which again i'm fine
with but what about caring for mum.

Am i being unreasonable for being uncomfortable with this. I was happy to do it when she was moving into the house (happy to get deeds in her name or joint names not the bank account) to care for mum when she wasn't at work. i'd have gone in during the day. But now she's forgotten all about mum and is concentrating on the money.

How can i make her see i'm unhappy with this with out seeming i'm selfish.
thanks.

Good luck with that. Have you ever seen the quality of homes that the council will pay for? I wouldn't put my worst enemy in one of those, and I've been in plenty of them for work. The quality of care that you get if you can use your savings/house to self-fund is orders of magnitude better and any children who would begrudge you that are grabby shits.

No point at all…

Unless you take into account that the vast majority of people die without needing care, those that do don’t tend to be there long so don’t run out of money and the fact that having the money gives you considerably better care choices…

Yep. No point at all

The vast majority of elderly people do not actually go into care. many can be supported at home by family or have carers come to the home. Both my in laws died very suddenly and were able to leave their home and significant savings to their 3 kids and my own mum died very suddenly and I will try to keep my dad at home if at all possible as the last thing he would want is to go into care. It all depends on the situation. Of course if all your kids live miles away from you or your care needs are such that you cannot be cared for at home then you pay for your care but this actually only applies to a small number of people overall. You can transfer all you want to your kids and grandkids but as has been said time and time again on this thread, there is no limit on time that local authorities can go back to when looking at deprivation of assets.

And the local authority will be investigating those transfers, and if they suspect you’ve done it just to avoid care fees, they will claim deprivation of assets and you’ll be assessed as though you still own them anyway, with all the ramifications. You need to read up on what can happen in old age if people transfer the property they are living in to their kids to avoid care fees. In order for it not to be considered deprivation of assets you would have to be paying the market rent to your kids if you were still living in the house - could you afford that ? And what if the LA comes after your kids for the fees, which is perfectly possible ? Not to mention the tax implications all round. I don’t understand why people can’t accept that under the present system if you have the assets you have to pay. Why should the tax payer foot the bill if you have the means to pay yourself ? I don’t like the system, no one does, because it basically gouges vulnerable people to line the pockets of big care conglomerates. But until someone comes up with a better, fairer system we’re stuck with it.

If there's no POA in place then none of your sister's plans can be accomplished.

Even with POA, such a clear attempt to steal your mum's house and cash wouldn't fly. Your sister is a shameless crook.

There are two separate questions here

• money,

• the work involved in caring for mum.

You and Dsis need to sit down with a solicitor to talk about the money. Get childcare. Do this as a matter of urgency.

You and Dsis need a contract or other solid agreement involving care. Maybe work this out with an honest third party to referee?

There is a POA (LPA) in place - the OP has it. And no LPA would authorise what they want to do - they’re trying to steal their mothers’ property to sidestep care fees and its theft. Basically the LPA compels the attorney to act in the best interests of the person they represent. It doesn’t give the attorney the power to give away or transfer assets, nor does it authorise them to do anything which would benefit themselves. No solicitor would countenance this plan, it’s utterly batshit. The mother has already been diagnosed with dementia, so there is a reasonable expectation that she will need care. That gives the LA the power to investigate any transfer of any funds or property - and they can investigate as far back as they like. If funds or property have been disposed of after there is reasonable expectation of care needs, then it’s deprivation of assets, and their mother will simply be assessed as though she still owned the funds and property. They’re not the least bit interested in their mum’s wellbeing if they’re proposing to take over her assets and deprive her of the funding that would allow her the choice of better care when she needs it - they’re abandoning her to the mercy of local authority care and hoping they won’t be found out. Like I said. Batshit.

Yep totally grabby. I hope you never judge benefit claimants etc because that would be totally hypocritical. I'm sure you would be totally happy paying rent out of your pension and living from shorthold tenancy agreement to tenancy agreement in your 70s/80s with no security if you really see no benefit in paying a mortgage.

Maybe I am a benefit claimer - how do you know?

Your attitude says a lot.

If you are, you’re the type of benefit claimer that drags the rest of them down.

@Lovelysausagedogscrumpy I suspect that the POA is one from the internet but the Court of Protection will have to issue a proper one in the event that the house needs to be sold unless things have changed.

Lol ok! FYI I’ve worked since I was 14 and currently work 3 jobs doing 6 days a week. As does my partner. We would like to leave our children some inheritance so like I say I’ll be putting assets into their names. I’m just giving an opinion it was never intended as “advice” I said the OP should go to her accountant for financial advise. They aren’t legally allowed to suggest anything unlawful

Best start doing it soon then..

I hope your kids enjoy wiping your arsenal then.

Even if she did move your mums money into her own account, the local authority will ask for banking records if you get to a point of them paying for your mums care - they’d then see the money went out to your sister and would say it needs to be spent on your mum.

Most importantly though, is your mum capacitated and what does she want?

The OPG (Office of the Public Guardian) are the only ones who can issue and register a POA - now called an LPA. The application forms are downloaded from the internet, completed and then sent to the OPG for registration, so it will be a proper one I would have thought. If it isn’t then it’s too late to get an LPA because her mum already has a diagnosis of dementia. The only thing they could do is apply to the Court of Protection for them to appoint an independent guardian to oversee their mums’ affairs.

Mum is incapacitated and already has a diagnosis of dementia. The OP has power of attorney for her mum and would be in a world of shit if she allowed her sister to do any of this, because the OP has a legal responsibility under the power of attorney to act in her mums’ best interests. Which this is not. Under the terms of a lasting power of attorney (LPA), the attorney is not allowed to do anything outside the terms described in the LPA, and they are definitely not allowed to do anything which would benefit themselves. So by allowing this the OP would be in breach of the LPA. One of the OP’s posts even mentioned having their mum’s will rewritten so that they get what they want. They seem to be practically turning themselves inside out to try to find a way around the care fees, and despite the OP bleating about not wanting to do it, but not knowing what to do, the answer is simple, as quite a few posts on here have suggested. As the LPA, she can report to the office of the public guardian that she suspects a relative is planning financial abuse of her mum, and they will advise accordingly.

A thought has just struck me, and I’m wondering if anyone else agrees. The OP’s mum has two daughters, but only one of them has lasting power of attorney - the OP. There is provision under an LPA for as many attorneys as wanted/needed, so why didn’t their mum appoint both of them to make joint decisions ? Could it be that mum didn’t trust the OP’s sister to act in her best interests ? Given how she’s acting now, it’s possible that mum suspected what would happen and put things solely in the OP’s hands to protect herself.

@Lovelysausagedogscrumpy This occured to me as well....

@Lovelysausagedogscrumpy I confess, I didn’t read much of the post. Currently sat in soft play watching my toddler so will read through properly later.

OP won’t be the first or last person who wants to avoid care fees - lost count of the amount of times I’ve heard ‘I’ve paid my taxes all my life, why should I pay for care!’ That said, if the house could have been put in trust at a point where mum was capacitated and she agreed, then it would have saved them some care cost money.

Guessing I’ll find out more when I read more later but I presume the LPA is for finances and not just health? And that a formal capacity assessment has been done as a diagnosis of dementia doesn’t automatically equate to lacking capacity… also maybe I’ll learn if her mums wishes have been take into account. I will read when there’s not 30 screaming toddlers running round!

That is shocking about rewriting a will!

A question I asked of OP three days ago, but she hasn't been back sincce then.

I doubt if OP will be back again.

I've got a sneaking suspicion she hasn't actually got LPA .
Possibly she thinks that it's automatically conferred on her because she manages her DM's affairs.

Or it was the sister testing out of the “I got this advice” line is likely to work…

I think you’re probably right. Problem is that if the OP has got the mothers’ LPA then the sister can’t do any of it, unless the OP agrees. Which she can’t because it’s theft, fraud, not in her mums’ best interests and she would be benefitting herself - all of which is prohibited under the terms of the LPA and most of which is illegal. If the sister has seen a solicitor she obviously hasn’t mentioned that her sister has her mums’ LPA otherwise the solicitor would have sent her packing before the conversation even started. I do wonder if it’s a wind up because it seems so blatantly greedy and grabby, and the OP hasn’t been back for a couple of days.